At a time when it was already becoming difficult to get clients to wait 12 to 16 weeks for custom pieces, how do you convince them to be patient in light of artisan slowdowns, shipping disruptions, and the shut-down of entire countries due to the Coronavirus crisis? Is the best worth the time and effort? How do you keep your artisans and workrooms busy and engaged? And what are the alternatives? Host Michael Boodro is joined by interior designers Madeline Stuart, Robert Stilin, and Thad Hayes.
In this episode, our guests tackle:
- The importance and value of custom made and one-of-a-kind pieces to create a truly unique space
- How to educate and encourage clients to wait for well made and high quality pieces
- Their concerns for the design industry, artisans, makers and vendors in the time of COVID-19
- Suggestions on how to manage client’s expectations as COVID-19 causes delays and cancellations that directly impact projects
- The takeaways and silver linings of a pandemic
Additional resources:
- Playing Favorites with Robert Stilin via Chairish
- Custom Art is Helping Homeowners Paint a Clearer Picture via Wall Street Journal
- 7 Ways the Coronavirus Will Change How We Design, Style, and Live in Our Homes via Better Homes & Gardens
Connect with Chairish and our guests on Instagram:
- Chairish: @chairishco
- Michael Boodro: @michaelboodro
- Madeline Stuart: @madelinedstuart
- Robert Stilin: @robertstilin
- Thad Hayes: @thadhayesinc
Lead Photo – Design: Robert Stilin. Photo: Stephen Kent Johnson.
READ AND LISTEN TO THE ENTIRE EPISODE:
Michael Boodro 0:00
This is a Chairish podcast and I’m your host Michael Boodro. In the very recent past, when you could get everything from an electric toothbrush to a vintage coffee chair delivered virtually overnight, it was already hard to convince some clients that it was worth waiting 12 to 16 weeks to have a custom sofa fabricated or to wait three months to have a special rug handwoven in India or China. But now in the face of supply chain disruptions and shutdowns due to the Coronavirus, what is the future for custom pieces? What does it mean for artisans’ work rooms and weavers? And with so many vintage and manufactured options available at the click of a button, is there any longer a need for special pieces? I’m fortunate today to have with us three esteemed designers who throughout their careers have created hundreds of custom pieces for their clients, but also embrace antiques and vintage items. First is La based designer, Madeline Stuart, who is known for her sophisticated and livable approach to the past, embracing styles as diverse as Hollywood deco glamor, and arts and crafts to create stylish and practical homes for her clients. Welcome, Madeline. Manhattan and Hamptons based, Robert Stilin brings comfort and elegance to his urbane rooms. And still with his love of industrial artifacts and machine age design, they are contemporary, yet always serene and soothing. Hello, Robert. And finally, we have New York designer Thad Hayes whose classic rooms are always rigorously elegant and artfully composed, distinguished by his knowledge of both fine and decorative arts and a subtle color palette. Welcome Thad. So I’m curious. All three of you have very sophisticated clients. And let’s put it frankly. Wealthy clients. And you’ve created lots of custom pieces for them over the decades of your careers. But I want to get a sense how much of your work before say the last five or seven years has been custom? And has that amount been decreasing or increasing even before the Coronavirus? I’d love to get a sense from each of you, how much custom work goes into your projects in general. So let’s start with you, Madeline. Ladies first.
Madeline Stuart 2:39
Thank you, Michael. I actually always did custom even when I was first starting and didn’t have access to some of the more exalted work rooms. I felt in some way as though it was cheating to just walk into a showroom and buy everything that someone else had designed and presented on the floor for purchase. I always wanted to do something that was a little more unique or a little just different than what was readily available. I feel like in our business, this is about bespoke. And while I can’t stand the word bespoke and I’m going to kick myself later for even using it, the truth is we’re working for clients who want something special. And oftentimes that special thing might be vintage or unique. But often it is not. It’s about making something specifically for them.
Michael Boodro 3:37
Gotcha. Robert, what about your projects? I mean, you’re known for repurposing and finding fabulous old things but how much of your work has been custom pieces and what are some of the workrooms that you’ve worked with? I mean, not by name, but do you have upholsters that you use? Do you have ironworkers? I’d love to have a sense.
Robert Stilin 3:54
Sure. I think that historically, for an awfully long time my projects that would break down as custom would be carpets unless we’re using vintage or antique. But really for a large project, I would say you know, the rugs that are going to be vintage and antiques are going to be special rugs and in certain areas like in a living room entry or the masters are like that. But all the other carpets and rugs would be custom with anywhere from three months to nine. And then all the upholstery is custom designed and custom built. And then all the window treatments and that sort of stuff. So for us that core extension of the architecture foundation of a project is all custom. And then we use a lot of antique and vintage furniture for everything else and then we get into custom when we can’t find things. Antique and vintage or certain antique and vintage things don’t really translate to today’s life, like you can find a lot of great 20th century bedside tables, but they’re made for beds that were like 14 inches high and now beds are twenty six inches high. So we make a lot of custom bedside tables. Also, you know, the way that we entertain and all that today, it’s very hard to find great dining tables, great coffee tables, and a lot of those kinds of things. So we tend to make a lot of things like that, or specific things where we just haven’t been able to find something that we really wanted to use. And, and then, in terms of work rooms, we have a huge stable of people in New York in the New York area. We have a great custom furniture maker in Massachusetts. We work with people in Los Angeles and Seattle, and kind of like all over the country, and also Europe.
Michael Boodro 4:43
Okay, great. Thad, what about you?
Thad Hayes 5:35
So from the very beginning, my whole philosophy was, you know, creating spaces that were unique and very specific for a particular location. That was a thing that I really latched on to early on, and for the client. And I’ve found that many things, as much as I love going into the business, I came from this very modern, kind of high tech background. You know, I arrived in New York in the late 70s. And it was very minimalist, but I’ve always loved antiques, and incorporated those then. I agree with what Robert is saying, which is that if we can’t find it, or if it doesn’t suit a particular function, we have to make it. Window treatments, like Robert was saying, are custom made. There’s a lot of things that require to be custom made, so that they actually fit into the apartment. Others are more of a design decision. And there was something that my very first mentor, Robert Bray told me. He said, if you’re going to be going out, and you’re specifying furniture from other designers, primarily living ones, he said, they will identify that person and not you with the project. And that was when I was like, in my early 20s. And I heard that loud and clear. So I always felt like it was important to do custom along with vintage antiques, and there’s no proportion. Sometimes it’s 30% custom. Sometimes it’s 50. It just really depends. But I’ve been hearing from designers over the last few years that many of their clients, especially the newer clients, or younger clients didn’t understand the need for custom. They were impatient. They didn’t want to wait for months to get the upholstery done or have the rug shipped in from India.
Michael Boodro 7:37
Has that been a problem? Or is it the fact that your clients are sophisticated enough or They’re used to it and they understand the importance and the value of unique pieces? So Madeline, why don’t you start with that?
Madeline Stuart 7:49
Well, I think it is true that when you work for an older or more sophisticated client, they’ve developed a level of patience and appreciation for fine things that perhaps a newly minted millionaire doesn’t quite understand yet. But I always try to encourage even my younger clients to wait to buy something unique. Why do you want to have the same thing that everyone else has? And why do you want to buy something that is so poorly made or has so little value that months from now or even a year from now? It will be absolutely worthless. And truth be told a lot of these companies who shall go nameless, like Restoration Hardware, have extraordinary lead times as well. You can’t buy something from a lot of these off the shelf companies and expect to get something overnight. The difference between waiting eight weeks or waiting an extra few weeks to get something that is truly custom made that fits your life, your home, your lifestyle, that’s in the fabric you want, that’s in the proportions that are correct, that has the pitch that is most comfortable for your body. To me, there’s no contest, and I think if you explain it well, they understand the difference in quality and cost. The differential is not that great. I think people have to be educated.
Michael Boodro 9:33
Sometimes the cost is not that much different either. A lot of this readymade stuff is not inexpensive.
Madeline Stuart 9:39
It’s not at all.
Michael Boodro 9:41
Right. Robert, what about in terms of your clients?
Robert Stilin 9:45
Well, I would say first of all, I’m impatient. And when we’re doing a project, you know, all these sort of like ready made things that could possibly appeal to us, which would not be Restoration Hardware except for like certain parts of a project. But like, you know, if you went to the D&D building or you went to the better showrooms, they often have 24 week lead times. I don’t even like this stuff and I’m certainly not going to wait 24 weeks for something that I don’t even like. And I think that for me, and I think this would be true of Madeline as well, our time horizons on our projects tend to be a minimum of nine to 12 months up to one and a half to 2, 3 4 years. So there’s time. So we always have the time to do that. I mean, the longest lead time generally is rugs and they oftentimes take nine months or a year, something like that. So we just manage our projects to account for it and we tell people up front, like you need to make these decisions by these certain dates. And, you know, and they want to. Our clients definitely want special things. They don’t want to, you know, walk into a hotel and see things in a hotel that they have in their house. They just don’t want stuff like that they want special stuff. But really, I think they’re just as impatient as anybody else. I mean, let’s face it, we live in, you know, an instant gratification society. And oftentimes we have projects for people that are amazing projects that have to be done in three months, and we have to do stuff that’s readily available. And we have to push our vendors to do custom things but if it’s not that, there’s the time, and it’s just about managing it to allow for custom, because we’re definitely gonna do it.
Michael Boodro 11:16
Right. But also, you know, things have changed now with Coronavirus. I mean, a lot of work rooms are shut down. A lot of offices are shut down. So how are you going to handle that? Let’s say, somebody’s moving in, and I hate to think of anybody moving in this period of whatever. But, you know, essential things do happen. How do you handle that? Are you worried about your work rooms that going under?I know, certain clients and even designers are saying they don’t want to place orders, because they’re not sure that this artisan or this vendor is going to be able to fulfill the order four months from now, and they don’t want to put the money down. So how are you guys dealing with that? Thad, let’s start with you.
Thad Hayes 11:55
You know, that’s a good question, Michael. Because I don’t know. And we won’t know until we actually go into the office. We’ve reached out and talked to some of the vendors that we were working with, and we have things that are in the works that are being fabricated. But I think that, at least I’ll speak for myself, there’s still a lot of unknown. And while we’ve been in touch with our core of our custom work, those people that I’ve known for 20 or 30 years that still make furniture, are still working. I mean, they’re still fine. And it seems like they’re going to come back because they’re all small. My metal guy has like two helpers, but they have like 8,000 square feet. They are in Brooklyn, and my furniture maker, not upholstery, but metal and wood and those things, has 10-12,000 square feet with just a few people. So in terms of production, and things going right back and being completed and moving forward, my gut is telling me that those small work rooms that we’ve depended on for the last 30 years will still be a good source to depend on moving forward.
Madeline Stuart 13:33
I have to say, though, I really am terribly concerned about our industry. And if we don’t come through this, supporting the companies who have been producing beautiful things for so many years, I think it’s going to be a real tragedy for all of us. Whether it’s a small fabric company or a furniture maker, or artisan weaver or a rug manufacturer, I think it’s incumbent upon all of us to do whatever we can to support those work rooms, those vendors, and those companies. It makes our industry richer and more varied. And I don’t want to get to a place where it’s merely survival of the fittest and by fittest, it’s the biggest and where you only have large manufacturers producing volume products as opposed to the smaller work rooms. Thad, while I agree with you that the smaller work rooms may be the ones to survive, if we don’t support them by creating our own product and custom product and keeping them busy and occupied, they won’t make it because they’re not big enough to rely on reserves of funds that can keep them going through a very lean time. And goodness knows, this is a very lean time for them.
Michael Boodro 13:33
Yeah. And I think in the design world, all the designers are really anxious to support small firms and artisans. But you are putting down your clients’ money. They’re the ones who are paying for this. And Robert, have you noticed any resistance and this is all still fairly new, I understand. But have you noticed resistance on your clients? You know, when you say, Oh, I think you should get this special thing, have any of them said to you, oh, well how am I gonna know that 16 weeks from now this company is not going to go bankrupt?
Robert Stilin 15:36
Not really. But we vet that for our clients. So we’re very proactive, and I really spend my clients money, just like it’s my own money. And I’m very diligent about that. So I would never, and I’m sure Thad and Madeline are exactly the same, I just wouldn’t take my clients money for something that I didn’t believe was going to happen. And you know, just what you were talking about with vendors, I would say 90% of my vendors worldwide are small businesses with less than 25 or 50 employees. And I do think they’re all generally viable. They all have business, they all will have business, when the pause is over and it’s just about getting through the pause. And hopefully the government incentives and all that kind of stuff, you know, will help. In Europe, I don’t know that they have the incentives. They said, you know, let’s just close down the country. And you know, we’ll do a deal about the money later. So I think that that’s going to become a big fiasco in Italy, in France, where I do a lot of business, but they also don’t have the high leverage that we have, and we’re of a highly leveraged culture, and we need to have cash all the time. They’re not so much that way. So, but my clients generally really do trust us. And they look to us to guide them and it is the biggest problem. I bought, you know, Charlotte Perriand cabinet at auction, like 10 days before the United States was closed down, and I paid for it. My client paid for it. It was like $75,000. And you know, I have it, but I have to get it here. I don’t know when we’re gonna get it. I mean, I have time. So there’s a lot of things like that. I have a rug that we ordered 12 months ago to get in time for the summer, you know, for this coming summer for the Hamptons, and now it’s delayed. And you know, it’s been delayed for 45 days already, and they don’t know. And so we just have to monitor it. And what I think is, this is the new world. We have to embrace it, and accept it and find new ways to organize it. And you know, our business every day is a lot of damage control and now this is the new damage and we have to control it.
Michael Boodro 17:36
Right. And Madeline, are your clients understanding in terms of the delays and things like that? I mean, it seems like people have to accept what’s going on but I don’t know. Rich people sometimes live in a different world.
Madeline Stuart 17:58
I agree. That is absolutely true. And they can be very demanding. And multiply that by the expectations that are evident in some of my Hollywood clients who truly think you can build a house in an afternoon because you can go to the stage set that looks like the Las Vegas strip in a week. I do have to encourage my clients to be patient, and they you know, everybody wants things now. And I don’t blame people for that. We do live in an age of instant gratification but I think in the long run, if people understand quality, and they understand what they’re getting and they’ve been educated by us as designers and connoisseurs of beautiful things, to be patient and to wait for the best because that’s worth waiting for, then they do. And right now everyone has been extraordinarily understanding. And I’m holding my breath to see if that continues. Obviously people initially can’t pitch a fit or throw a tantrum because their rug was delayed due to Coronavirus, but I think if this continues for months and months and months and the piece that they’ve ordered or the thing that they’ve been waiting for, or the fabric that’s supposed to be woven specially for them continues to be delayed, I can see people getting a bit pesky and difficult because there is a lot at stake. And in some cases, it’s the difference of whether or not they can move into their home, or whether they’re sleeping on an air mattress, or that bed that you’ve put into production six months ago. So I think right now everyone’s being fairly calm and understanding and realizing that this is outside our control. This is not due to our ineptitude or our inability to manage our projects. It’s something that we can’t take any responsibility for. So for the time being, I think people are rather copacetic about it.
Michael Boodro 20:53
But Thad, how about your clients? Because you have some masters of the universe clients in New York. And you know, it’s a tough town. How are your clients handling all of this?
Thad Hayes 21:01
You know, we were really lucky. The timing couldn’t have been better. The Thursday before we shut our office down, which was six weeks ago tomorrow was the client that started moving in March and they actually finished. It was like a three week move. But that was a three year project. And that was great. I mean, they’re in there, like it’s done. There’s even a few pieces of art hanging so they’re happy. Everyone’s happy. So right now we’re doing a lot of drawing, which is not unusual. But it is a little unusual that we’re doing a lot. It’s like 85% architecture right now and 15% decorating. So we’re working on this house in St. Barts. So it’s good because there’s a couple of people in the office who can pretty much draw. We can do zoom design meetings. So no one’s yelling and screaming. And it’s mostly because of where we’re at with our projects. And we also are entering a period where, not that things were slowing down, but they were getting very manageable. And I was looking forward to actually taking off a number of weeks this summer.
Michael Boodro 22:15
Hope you weren’t planning to travel.
Thad Hayes 22:20
So I would say everyone is being very, very considerate, and very nice. And those clients that you describe, they check in. They are like, we hope your families are well and these are such odd times. And, you know, hopefully, you know that we’ll see a silver lining to all of this. And I think people from all walks of life, and from all occupations from factory workers to designers to everyone on the planet is really, I think, I hope, really looking at this pause and saying, this horrible thing that’s going on right now, I can’t do anything about it other than what they’re asking me to do. And that’s shelter in place, wear masks. I think if there’s nothing positive that comes out of it, it will be horrible for me personally. It’ll be something in my lifetime that I will regret the rest of my life if there’s not a very, very powerful, strong takeaway from this experience.
Madeline Stuart 23:33
Thad, will you tell me what you feel the silver lining might be in this? I would love to know what that is so I can start looking for it.
Thad Hayes 23:42
For me, again, I’m so grateful and I feel so good that I can coast for a little while. I mean, you know, I can take care of things and take care of business. So I think that there’s some comfort level. I think if you’re scrambling and you have kids that don’t have food, you know, there’s all these levels, but for me personally, it’s a time that I’ve been using, especially the last few weeks. The first two or three weeks, I really struggled because I was fighting it. And I kept looking at that, like it was an enemy that was trying to, you know, kill me and it’s not an enemy. But the virus is trying to stay alive. You know, it’s doing the only thing it knows how to do and that’s to, you know, replicate. So I’m looking at it like this for the first time in my life since I was like 17 or 18, I got on a treadmill. You know, I was telling someone recently, I didn’t I didn’t work very hard and I didn’t study in high school. I was a very average high school student. The minute I found college and design, I was like, oh holy shut. This is amazing. That all these crazy people love what I love. And I got on a treadmill of school and work and I’ve been on that treadmill since I was 18. So I’m off the treadmill for a few weeks. So it’s allowing me to just reflect on my life and what’s important. You know, I love work. There’s a lot more important things I want to do in life.
Michael Boodro 25:15
But to get back to the more practical side of the business, I wanted to ask you guys about, you know, if custom pieces and if work rooms and weavers and all these specialty people are suffering during this time, which I mentioned they will and following through, what do you think the alternative is? It’s going to be something that will work for you for your clients and your projects. Are there alternatives? What’s going to happen? Are these artisans going to have to restart, go bankrupt, restart? What do you think is gonna happen? I mean, I don’t expect anyone to have a definitive answer here.
Robert Stilin 25:50
I don’t see it changing that much. For me, I think that my vendors seem pretty solid. And they have a lot of work once they’re allowed to work. And I believe in them. And they believe in me, I’ve always been a good rainmaker for them. And I just have faith that it’s all going to work out. I think the biggest thing is just adapting. Things have changed, and all these issues about working remotely, and you know being able to ship stuff and all that sort of stuff, it’s gonna have to get all flushed out. And we need to be flexible and adjustable. We have to teach our clients to be flexible and adjustable. And, you know, like, one of the things for me is if we’re ready to do an installation and somebody didn’t come, then we’ll come up with some other alternative that satisfies the need temporarily. There will be a cost to it and you know, that’ll be okay. And they’ll either do it, or they’ll just wait, but we give our clients options that can sort of make up for the difference until the real thing comes. I mean, but things are going to present themselves. I mean, if it goes on and becomes impossible, and you know, what is a rug dealer gonna do if suddenly a rug that was supposed to take three to three or four months is now taking nine or 12 months? And then really, it ends up being two years? Like, you know, is the client allowed to get their money back? Hopefully we don’t get there. But we’ll see. We just have to adapt. That’s what I think.
Michael Boodro 27:25
What about you Thad?
Thad Hayes 27:26
I feel pretty confident that most of my vendors will make it through this. And when I say this, I’m kind of, you know – I’ve made up my own timeline based on what we’re being told. But I think that they will make it through, and there will be guidelines, and it’s going to be, you know, if the production slows down, or if we go to inspect a piece, there might be restrictions about that. Like, if I go to Jones to look at upholstery – maybe it will be more difficult to get in there when I want to, you know. Usually I like to go at 9 or 10 in the morning. So I think there’s going to be all of those things, and I think there’s going to be a lot more communication between people expressing what they want, and what they need. And I don’t mean between designer and client, but all of these vendors that we’ve kind of been very authoritative in giving them drawings and there’s gonna have to be better communication. And I think that even besides with vendors, I think it goes to a discussion that we had, for the first time this morning on a regular zoom call with the office, where everyone’s on is that, you know, moving through the city, we’re gonna have to communicate with strangers, saying, excuse me, I’m moving to the left. I mean, we can’t run into each other, like we were doing. We can’t brush up and I mean, people are spitting on you and everything else. So I think communication, really amping up and letting people know, this is what I need, or this is what I want.
Michael Boodro 29:16
And one of the luxuries of working with work rooms and artisans for a long time and decades, like you were saying is you almost develop a shorthand. You know, you can say, you want this and they know exactly what you mean. Now, everyone, even people that have been used to working with you – I agree with you Thad that you’re gonna have to be much more clear and specific and communicate, like you have to say to someone in the grocery store, please back up. I think you’re gonna have to, you know, everything from delivery men to the people at the upholstery showroom. I think we’re gonna have to do a lot more talking and a lot more communicating and being clear and you guys may have to do that if you have to find a new outlet or something, a new workroom or do more drawings, whatever, working with whatever you have and with people. You know, transmitting color via the computer isn’t always the same. You say, Oh, no, that’s too orange. And then, you know, it’s got to be a little more complicated, I think.
Robert Stilin 30:17
I think it is already. I mean, I feel like working from home during Corona is exhausting. These zoom calls – one day, we had zoom calls and meetings from 10am until 4pm. I was exhausted. It’s great. And it’s wonderful. And we’ve already like, you know, we have to the extent that I feel we can, we have embraced technology for years, and we do so many things with all of our vendors in the tri state area on the West Coast and Europe and all that all the time. But there’s a portion in our business that it’s the tangible thing you have to deal with. And I don’t think technology will ever be able to replace that. That’s the part that it’s okay for now that that eight hour day, or whatever it was and all those meetings were really helpful. We have two or three big construction jobs that are fortunate enough to be able to keep working. And we were able to meet the clients and the architects and all this kind of stuff and keep them going. But I felt afterward if this is the future of my business, if it’s going to become entirely virtual, I don’t really want to do this anymore. It doesn’t appeal to me.
Madeline Stuart 31:23
There’s no substitute for seeing these things in person.
Robert Stilin 31:26
I have to go to my workroom. Sometimes I just have to. I’ve got to sit in a chair. I’ve got to look at the fabric. I’m famous for saying like, I love to rub fabrics all over my body to see if I like it. And I want to do that. And I want my clients to do it too. Because that’s how you create comfort in a home. You can’t do that on a computer screen.
Michael Boodro 31:44
Gotcha. And Madeline. I think there was something you said earlier that I think is very true, but I’m not sure how it’s gonna play out. This has only been going on for six weeks but if it extends, how impatient or cantankerous are clients going to get? And my question to you, and actually all of you, but especially you Madeline, is what are the alternatives when your clients start getting cranky and want delivery? I mean, I’m not saying you would ever have to order something from Restoration Hardware but have you thought about this? Or do you have resources that you would turn to in a lesser than ideal situation?
Madeline Stuart 32:25
I haven’t given that much thought because that’s not the work I do. And people don’t come to me because they want an Insta home. People don’t come to me saying that I need you to completely redo my house and have it finished in three months. I just don’t do that kind of work. Most of my projects go on for years and I don’t mean to say it’s a laborious process or that it’s so painstaking as to be, you know, an aggravation, but that we find things when we find them. I tell the story to my staff all the time, they said why haven’t you found my dining room chandelier? And I said it’s not as though I found it and kept it a secret, believe me, you’ll be the first to know. I’m looking for the right thing.
Robert Stilin 33:16
That’s a great line. I’m going to use that.
Madeline Stuart 33:19
The French have the expression, the ‘mot juste’ which is the right word, and we have the right object. I don’t want to shortchange the ultimate result of a project. So we’re looking for just the right thing. And when we find it, the clients are thrilled because they know we’ve actually put effort and thought and energy into locating what I feel is the most beautiful option. Whether it’s within their budget, within the proportion, within the opportunities that we have to find beautiful things. But my interiors are a collection of things that we’ve discovered and found. And I think people come to us for that. And they come to me because they know I want to design a fabric or design a beautiful rug and have it made by weavers in Antigua. They are not coming to me for something that is more immediate. And so I think I’m in a very fortunate position that way because they wouldn’t have been my clients in the first place. So I think there’ll be much more understanding but yes, how long does this go on? And how long can we keep these small workrooms in business? That is the $64,000 question.
Robert Stilin 34:44
Michael, the one thing that I thought was and I just was thinking about as Madeline was talking is that I actually think for me anyways, and I do think that Thad and Madeline would probably agree or I’d hope that they would is, that I actually when I sit here and I think, I feel like all of our all vendors are so well positioned to manage into the future and to adapt to the new life that has all this new protocol about safety and everything. Because I think about my upholsterer. My main upholsterer and you know, sometimes we use Jonas too. But my main upholsterer in Long Island City, has got a 14,000 square foot space, that’s very loft, like industrial, and there’s only 10 people working there. They’re already social distancing. And by the way, they already wear masks, too and have for years, because it’s dusty. And there’s a lot of stuff in there. I think about, you know, my favorite custom furniture maker up in Massachusetts. They have a 25,000 square foot old industrial building and they have like 12 guys who work there and everybody’s in a different space. And so they’re really like actually positioned to, to carry on and to get back to work quickly, in a safe way. In many ways, much more easily than these big, large companies that use, you know, assembly and all that kind of stuff that our people don’t use, because it’s all made by one or two people by hand.
Madeline Stuart 36:01
Right. But that means the work has to come. And right now, people are scared. And even though our clients are at a very high wealth percentage, people are not shopping right now. People are not. They may be focused and hunkered down at home. But I don’t think they’re reaching for the phone and calling their favorite decorator and saying let’s party.
Robert Stilin 36:28
I think 50% of our jobs are at pause and 50% are going. I do have an old long term client who just called me the other day and bought a new apartment in Tribeca. And we’re gonna have our first meeting next week, which I feel incredibly thankful and grateful for. And they’re lovely people who are very old fashioned, solid people. The way that it happened is so meaningful and helpful to me, because these are not people who they don’t throw money around. They’re conservative. They’re thoughtful. They’re kind and they’re all about their family, and they have the courage to pony up for a pretty serious department. I think it will happen. And 50% of people got freaked out. And none of them are going to cancel their projects. They’re just going to wait it out a little bit, and then the other 50% are doing it and they’re committed.
Madeline Stuart 37:26
The problem is with some of those work rooms, they can’t all afford to wait it out.
Robert Stilin 37:32
Sure. Of course. I agree.
Madeline Stuart 37:33
So you know, my concern is for those people, can they make it? Obviously, our hope is that they can.
Michael Boodro 37:41
Right. Right. Thad, how are you feeling? I mean, you were thinking of slowing back down a little anyway, as you said, but are you optimistic about the fall, for example?
Thad Hayes 37:51
I’m optimistic. I’m also, I think, a realist. I mean, I’m not reading the post. I think the earliest, not going back to normal, fall or winter, if we’re lucky. I am preparing for the winter if we’re lucky. My gut based on history is that the election has to happen and the inauguration has to happen, and that people are not going to go into first gear until mid January. Again, I’m, you know, I’m a good business person. But I am not a businessman. And I’m not a financial person. But I think at least the startup is after the election and the inauguration is going to be important. As for the country, and then we have to heal as a country and forget about a planet we have to come together and with all the losses and heal, you know, and talk about the environment again, because when you see these photographs, I think one of the most powerful things from this Coronavirus is to see these images all over the globe from Los Angeles in the hills to the George Washington Bridge in New York. And these cities in China where the air is crystal clear. You can see the Himalayas, you can see New York City precisely, you can see all of LA is crystal clear. It’s because there’s not all the cars you know and so I think the working remotely, the clean air, the environment, I mean it’s all playing in and it’s a one big gumbo. It’s one big thing that is all in one pot. It’s all together. That I am certain of. The climate change, and viruses – all of that go hand in hand, and very little has been written and talked about. But, you know, people saw this coming 5-10 years ago. As climate changes, there’s going to be more bacteria and viruses. And we have to come up with the science to deal with that.
Michael Boodro 40:19
Yeah. Madeline, does having those clear skies in LA make you feel more optimistic?
Madeline Stuart 40:27
Is there a song there somewhere?
Michael Boodro 40:30
No, I mean, I’m not saying you’re wrong Thad but you know, January is like 10 months from now. And I do think that, what Madeline is saying, some of these workrooms and artisans aren’t going to last for 10 months. So what’s in between? I mean, it’s great, Robert, that you have a new client and I have heard from other designers that they’ve gotten some projects. And I actually do believe, Robert, that you’re right, that coming out of this, people are going to value their homes more than ever.
Madeline Stuart 41:00
But I think there are companies and some of the large fabric companies will make it. A lot of the fabric companies and houses did not make it through 2008. There were dozens and dozens of smaller work rooms, smaller furniture makers, showrooms and fabric houses that could not weather that economic storm, and that was 2008. And that looks like a walk in the park compared to what we’re seeing now.
Michael Boodro 41:32
And a lot of showrooms have been crumbling just the last couple of years.
Madeline Stuart 41:35
And with rents the way they are and, and the cost of health insurance for employees, and workers comp for employees, I think some of these fixed costs, if they cannot be adjusted, these companies are not going to be able to sustain their production and their rents and their showrooms. And a lot of them will go under. I think a lot of designers are not going to make it because they don’t have either the built in wherewithal or the foundation, the experience, and the clientele, that will get them through this. And I hate to be pessimistic and I know Michael, you were involved in that exchange with some other designers that discuss the Stockdale Paradox, which is one of the most profoundly interesting things I’ve ever heard in the last few weeks, which is based on the teachings of James Stockdale who was a naval officer shot down in Vietnam during the war. He became a prisoner of war at the Hanoi Hilton for seven years. And when he asked how he survived it, he spoke to the fact that he was able to temper positivity with realism. As you mentioned, Thad, that the optimists who were imprisoned and tortured in the Hanoi Hilton, all expire and they died. They thought, oh, we’re gonna get out by Christmas. And then Christmas would come and they wouldn’t have been released. But Stockdale realized that he had to be realistic about his circumstances, and he didn’t give up his positivity or his faith that he would ultimately be a free man. But we also have to be realistic about this. And we have to see that there are going to be profound and elemental changes to our industry, to our world,and to business as we know it. And I just think we need to be somewhat mindful and aware of how that is going to affect all of us. It’s unrealistic to think that Los Angeles will become so enamored of clear skies, that people are going to stop driving, right?
Michael Boodro 43:39
Oh, the 405 is still there.
Robert Stilin 43:41
Listen, I completely agree with you, Madeline. And I agree with Thad. I mean, and don’t get me wrong for one minute. I mean, you know, and let’s look at ourselves and our industry. I mean, I can’t last forever, at 50%. I won’t. I mean, I’ve been really, really lucky and fortunate. And we had to lay two people off whose jobs are really completely dependent on having an office, which we no longer have, and we don’t know when it’s ever going to be. But other than that, I’ve maintained my entire design staff, and we’re working hard and all that, but we’re working at 50%. And I can guarantee you that I’m not making any money. I mean, I’m not gonna get rich and ultimately, if it doesn’t go over 50% at some point, like, you know, I’ll be in financial trouble too, as will many, many people that are colleagues. I’m optimistic and I started this, you know, six weeks ago thinking like, holy shit, my life is over. Like I’m screwed. It was actually a good process for me because it really centered me and made me think, you know what, whatever this is going to be, I’m going to be okay. I can, you know, survive with less. And I’m just gonna have to adjust and adapt through this and figure it out.
Madeline Stuart 44:52
What doesn’t kill us will make us stronger and this is survival of the fittest right now. And I think we have to be smart. We have to be patient and I think we have to be fully prepared to see that. It may not be business as usual. And if business as usual is ever a thing, again, whether it takes a year, 18 months, two years or never, that we may become adjusted to a new normal and then we’ll adapt and adopt or we will fall by the wayside. Yeah. So, this conversation is so cheerful!
Thad Hayes 45:34
Michael, I just want to speak for one second about what you keep coming back to because I thought about it prior to today. If we’re not able to do the custom pieces that we would like, because of timing, budget considerations, and the fact that those people weren’t even there. And we would naturally go to, I think, something like a beautiful, simple B&B Italia sofa if they’re still around. I mean, it’s an Italian based company. We don’t know if any of these large companies are going to be around. But what I’m saying is that, and we’ve talked about it a little bit in the office, I think it is about being adaptable during this period. Being a person that is flexible, and adaptable, has always been a very good trait in people. And it’s something that I’ve tried to and work at, being such a control freak. I’ve worked very hard at being flexible and adaptable. And we’re gonna have to do it. And if that means going and shopping online for a special sofa, or a coffee table, at Chairish or any of these, these e-commerce sites, which is what they are, we know that we can turn out a good product that represents our brand, that may have fewer custom pieces, and still be true to who we are. As there were more tornadoes and hurricanes and disasters before this. I said, look, I fly a lot. My carbon footprint is not good. I’ve lived in tiny apartments, which is good, but you know, driving and everything else. So let’s narrow it down to the US. So we’ve been practicing that for about 12 or 18 months. So we’re not shipping overseas. But even a consolidated truck from California to New York is a lot of gasoline. So what we’ve started doing in the last six weeks is, let’s keep it to the northeast primarily. That’s our zone of shopping for these vintage and antique pieces. And I know it’s very narrow but we start looking and it’s like there’s a million things available.
Michael Boodro 48:14
It’s not like you’re only shopping in Cincinnati. That would be a little harder.
Madeline Stuart 48:17
I will say that one of the great answers and solutions to making custom things, is buying vintage things. You’re still getting something unique. You’re still getting something that is probably better made than anything you can you know buy today that’s mass produced in China or North Carolina. You’re gonna get a higher quality product, and then you can reinvent it in a very custom way, whether it means just really bolstering it or refinishing it or adding some legs or or you know, making subtle changes. But for me the answer to not being able to do custom is always looking to vintage and antiques because at least there’s something of true value there.
Michael Boodro 49:07
Right. Right. But I think it has just been a fascinating discussion. Madeline, you said something which I know maybe it will surprise you to hear that I found very encouraging because you’re more encouraging than you realize is, I do think that in terms of all your work, friends that you work with, you know, the custom rugs, the custom draperies, all that stuff. It seems like all of you agree that there are enough clients out there who are educated. You’ve educated them or whatever, and they’re sophisticated. They really want something special and I don’t see that changing the way they get it. It may change. It may take longer for them to get those special rooms, special items and make their house special. But it seems to me that you all agree that there is a clientele that understands the need for custom work. Is that correct?
Madeline Stuart 50:03
I think very often, those clients need to be educated and brought along and instructed and encouraged. But if you show them and if you lead the way, they will follow.
Michael Boodro 50:17
Right. Good. And Thad, you would agree?
Thad Hayes 50:21
Right.
Michael Boodro 50:22
And I think that’s probably what’s going to stay. Not all of them – God knows that some people are gonna be hurt, and some people are gonna go out of business. But it seems to me that it’s because of you guys. Educating and showing your clients, you know, and creating work that they respond to when they come to you because they’ve seen your work, you know, online on Instagram and the magazines and your books, and that they appreciate what you do. And I think as long as you keep doing it, and keep educating and as Madeline said, bringing them along, I do think there’s going to be a future for custom pieces and custom design. Well, I want to thank you all. I want to thank my wonderful guests, Madeline Stuart, Thad Hayes and Robert Stilin. And thank you all for listening to the Chairish podcast.