Grand, exuberant, and exquisitely layered rooms have always had an exalted place in the design world. But are they still relevant in a post-Covid-19 world? In this episode, two top interior designers, Michelle Nussbaumer and Timothy Corrigan, argue that their styles — traditional, colorful, and eclectic — are even more valid than before, and share their insights into creating comfort, the importance of fine detailing, the coming revival of antiques, and the need for a touch of visual dissonance in every room.
In this episode, our guests tackle:
- How traditional decor and design have changed
- The keys to make a home functional, comfortable and easily livable but also beautiful
- What American clients and designers can take from European homes
- The best ways to use color to warm up a room and elevate it
- Which trends are coming next in vintage and antique furniture (hint: brown furniture!)
Additional resources:
- Michelle Nussbaumer: Maximalist Queen via Chairish
- 11 Sophisticated Spaces by Timothy Corrigan via Architectural Digest
- What is Traditional Design? Via House Beautiful
Connect with Chairish and our guests on Instagram:
- Chairish: @chairishco
- Michael Boodro: @michaelboodro
- Michelle Nussbaumer: @michellenussbaumer
- Timothy Corrigan: @timothycorrigan
Lead Photo: Eric Piasecki/OTTO
READ AND LISTEN TO THE ENTIRE EPISODE:
Michael Boodro 0:00
This is a Chairish podcast and I’m your host Michael Boodro. Today, I’m pleased to have with me two designers who bring fresh energy and a very personal take on grand decorating. They’re here to talk about how traditional decor might evolve and a very changed world. First up is Dallas based designer Michelle Nussbaumer, whose style might best be described as grand bohemian and inimitable mix of patterns, periods and vivid color, a look that she carries off with enormous panache. Michelle follows in the grand theatrical tradition of Tony Duquette, but with an eye on how people live today. Her Dallas showroom, Ceylon is a favorite resource of designers, a grand bazaar full of treasures ranging from vintage textiles to antiques, to the fantastic jewelry she designs. Her first book, Wanderlust: Interiors that Bring the World Home captures her all encompassing eye and her ability to blend high and low over the top and practical. Welcome, Michelle.
Michelle Nussbaumer 1:23
Thank you, Michael. That was such a lovely introduction. Thank you.
Michael Boodro 1:27
You’re very welcome. I’m also enormously pleased to have Timothy Corrigan with us. Tim’s work ranges from Los Angeles houses for young families to old world Paris apartments to sprawling estates for Middle Eastern sheikhs, richly detailed with antiques, and painted wallpapers, touches of guilt, and the gleam of mirrors. His rooms are also eminently comfortable and practical, qualities that he always stresses in his designs. And he is addicted to French chateau. He’s currently renovating his third. And he detailed the renovation of his previous one, the Château du Grand-Lucé and his first book. His most recent book is the new, elegant, stylish, comfortable rooms for today, which I had a little hand in. So welcome, Tim.
Timothy Corrigan 2:14
Oh, it’s so great to be with you, Michael. It’s so good to be with you, Michelle.
Michelle Nussbaumer 2:17
Thank you. I can’t wait to see you guys here.
Michael Boodro 2:19
Yeah, I know! In reality as opposed to virtually. So I want to get started with how traditional decor has changed. Because for a while there, it seemed like we saw nothing but mid century modern. When we started to see traditional coming back but you know, in the way that you guys do, using antiques or whatever. But now with COVID how do you think that the crisis has changed? I think there’s a greater emphasis on home now, but do you think that’s going to be good for the kind of detailed and exuberant designing that you do? Or is it going to make people want a simpler, easier, more shaker existence? What do you think, Michelle?
Michelle Nussbaumer 2:59
You know, really, this is a great question, Michael. But I have to say I have more people calling about second homes right now than I’ve ever had in my career. And more people calling for design, just it’s kind of crazy across the board. But I feel like people really want at this point just something that’s comfortable and beautiful. We’re spending so much time in our home so I don’t think it necessarily needs to be just very simple. I think people just want something that makes them feel happy. So those are the kinds of people they’re going to reach out to Timothy and I anyway. So I don’t feel like that will be limiting my client base in some kind of way. People who want a beautiful home that’s a little bit grand are still gonna want a beautiful home that’s grand. So I feel really positive about the whole design industry right now.
Michael Boodro 3:44
Right. And to me, it seems as if people once they get their house functioning, they then want it to be beautiful. And of course that’s where you guys can come in, in such a great way. Have you noticed that with your clients? Because you have a range of clients?
Timothy Corrigan 3:58
Absolutely. I think Michael, and I sort of echo what Michelle was just saying, is that the key thing is that it really has to work first. It has to really work in terms of being comfortable. You have to be able to live in it very easily. You don’t have to worry about how things stain and all those practical aspects. But then I think you do go to the next level, which is where you really start focusing on what it looks like and the beauty. And I think that increasingly, people want more beautiful rooms. They want homes that can be their sanctuaries. A lot of the mid century modern looks beautiful on paper but gosh, if you’ve been at home for months and months and months with all your stuff, it doesn’t look so pretty anymore. And you’ve got all this junk in there that’s distracting from what that purity of that mid century modern look is. Whereas a home that is more in the style that Michelle and I do is actually much more forgiving. It’s easier to live in because actually everything does not have to be in a perfect place. And it accommodates the things that could come out of life. And so I think that increasingly, people are looking for more comfortable, but also spaces that are more accommodating to live in.
Michelle Nussbaumer 5:06
I just want to say that you could not have said that in a more precise way. And I feel like too, a lot of people now are entertaining at home, not maybe the way we’re thinking but with their families and close friends. And so they want to have the home functioning for that as well, which, you know, for so long, I would do kitchens and homes for people that I don’t know if they ever went in these kitchens. All of a sudden, people are all over their kitchen and their living spaces. And so I think that Timothy’s right, in a modern sense, that is such a precise kind of look that anything out of space, you know, kind of ruins the look where in the kind of houses we do, the more the better.
Michael Boodro 5:44
Right? It’s very hard to live minimally. I mean, I think also it comes out of that English tradition and country house tradition of relaxing a place to put your drink or your cup of tea, a book at hand, that kind of thing. And I think Americans are warming up to that. But I think it is hard, because I see in magazines, and on Instagram, these beautiful rooms where everything is in place and mid century, you know, has been popular for a while now and will continue to be. I think now people are more willing to mix it up than perhaps they were before. But I think that this kind of relaxed thing, I would say, comes from Europe. And you guys, both are heavily European influenced and you both have homes in Europe. What do you think you would like American clients and American designers to take from Europe? What’s the one one or two things that you would most want them to achieve?
Timothy Corrigan 6:33
The key thing is that if you look at European homes, English and French and Italian, is that they’re not perfect. Not every color is exactly matched, the rug is not tied in with the detailing of the wallpaper, etc. Americans are frankly afraid of getting it wrong. They wanted everything to be perfect. And I think that when you look at the sort of the relaxed, casual aspects of the good English country houses, the French country houses, etc. It’s meant to be a little bit haphazard. Everything’s not meant to be perfect. And that’s part of what gives that feeling that, hey, this is a place for you really to live and relax.
Michelle Nussbaumer 7:14
The relaxed kind of elegance that is irreverent, that the English and very much the Europeans all do. I lived for quite a while in Rome. And so when I came back to America, people would say, you know, we want an Italian home, and they didn’t understand what an Italian home was for them. This was some kind of Mediterranean thing that they couldn’t really understand. That’s not a thing in Italy. They might have a beautiful summit tile floor or a beautiful marble mosaic floor. But that floor has probably been there for hundreds of years and they just added on. And the other thing I love very much about European homes and European estates is that every generation adds another layer. And if you look at Chatsworth, you know, there’s a portrait by Lucien Freud of the Duchess, which is such a modern portrait, and then you know, just the portraits by Gainsborough. So it’s all there together. And of course, not everyone can have that.
Michael Boodro 8:06
In a way we can.
Michelle Nussbaumer 8:09
But in a way, you can have your family things and just mix them in generationally at your farmhouse, or whatever it is. And just be more irreverent with your house, and it’ll bring you so much more joy, I think.
Michael Boodro 8:21
Right. But I do think that people get intimidated by things of value. I mean, one thing about Europeans, they treat things of value as if it’s just another item in the home. Whereas, you know, Americans when I grew up, and I’m dating myself, but it used to be that furniture was sold in sets. You know, you buy the sofa, and the two chairs and the matching coffee table. And you know, I think there’s nothing worse in terms of having personal style than having a set, a matched set of virtually anything.
Timothy Corrigan 8:51
The idea of a matched set is really all about getting it right. This matches with this, and this matches with this. And that’s what you don’t want to do. You don’t want to feel like it all came as a set. And I think you do want it to feel like it’s a look that has evolved over time, for generations or over the course of your own lifetime. You want it to feel like it reflects who you are and who you’ve been.
Michelle Nussbaumer 9:14
I always tell people to collect and buy what you love. And somehow it all goes together and looks beautiful together. So I think if people will trust their own tastes and styles instead of necessarily following a trend or something and just say, it always somehow matches and goes together in an irreverent kind of way. I have to use that word again.
Michael Boodro 9:34
Right. But you know, you also mentioned color, and I think color is another thing that Americans are reluctant to embrace. I mean, I remember again, when I was young, there were definite colors that didn’t go together. You wouldn’t wear them together. You wouldn’t use them together. And it was funny. We did a Chairish trend report a couple of months ago, and one of the hot color trends was red with pink and when I remember when I was a kid, my sister – I have three sisters who were like, oh, no, red does not go with pink. You don’t wear them together, you know, there were strict rules. Now you guys break those rules all the time. Is it a hard sell for your clients? I mean, do you find people reluctant to embrace that?
Timothy Corrigan 10:15
I think, again, if people are afraid of color. You look at the European fabric manufacturers and they will say, Gee, we’ve got all this huge range of colors and we love to show everyone that we’ve got these ranges of colors. But in the end, they will probably come back with the cream, the beige, the taupe or whatever. But I think that aspect of using color is so important in terms of giving life to a room. And it’s interesting to talk about this aspect of people thinking that certain colors don’t go together. I’ve got a book that I use. It’s from 1926. And it’s called Color and Interior Decoration. It’s from a writer in England and it actually talks about colors that are traditionally thought not to go well together, and how in fact, actually, they can work beautifully when you’re pairing these colors that you would never think of putting together.
Michael Boodro 11:03
Right. Michelle, you are fearless with color. I mean, I just saw a kitchen of the year you did for House Beautiful. And it was like a beautiful purple pattern, wallpaper, a black backsplash and a vivid red sink. And it was like, wow. Talk a little about how you use color.
Michelle Nussbaumer 11:23
Well, first of all, I want to say that my favorite color anthology is pink and red. So it’s all over my house. And my whole living room is pink and red. And it’s been that way since 1984. So yes, I love color. I’m not afraid of color. I just did a line that came out in Paris with Clarence House and of course I did all the crazy color combos that I love. And then we sort of did everything in blues and grays which are probably the number one sellers. So I think Americans are afraid of color. Having said that, my line is doing amazingly in the color vibe in London and South Africa, which is so shocking in a way, but I guess it makes sense. So I love color. I think I go back to the same idea that if you love it, it sort of works. And what I don’t like is a matching trim with the matching stripe and the matching this the matching that. I don’t really like that. I like something a little off. And wasn’t it Karl Lagerfeld, who said, you know, without ugliness, there is no beauty. So there has to be a little bit of something wrong for it to really come together.
Michael Boodro 12:26
A little surprise or a little something that jolts your eyes.
Michelle Nussbaumer 12:29
A little something so your eye does not just rest in the whole room. That becomes one montage of the same thing. And I think the way that happens in European homes, and I have to include in this, you know, Moroccan homes and probably Indian homes, is that there’s really not this idea in these other countries that everything has to match. It just doesn’t even exist in their mentality. And I think as Americans, we get very hung up on everything matching.
Michael Boodro 12:57
Right. And Tim, in your fabrics for Schumacher and I know you do trims so, I’m gonna talk a little bit about trims. You do blue and white. I know you have blue and white, which is the traditional thing, but you have lots of different colors, and certainly in your wallpaper murals that you do for Fromental are certainly wild as opposed to some you know.
Timothy Corrigan 13:27
They’re real statement pieces.
Michelle Nussbaumer 13:29
I love your Fromental pieces.
Timothy Corrigan 13:31
Thank you. Thank you. I think what was interesting is in all of those, both the trims and the Fromental wallpaper and for the fabrics, is it they’re all embracing color. It was interesting when I was developing this new collection for perennials. I was showing them much warmer colors than they had ever been used to. They always sort of focused on through cooler, grayish tone colors, and I kept pushing them for warmer colors. Because I actually think that people feel happier when they are with colors that are warm in terms of their tones and base. And I will often look at a room and say that’s a happy room, or that’s kind of a downer room. I don’t think people really want to be in downer spaces. They want to be in spaces that elevate them and make them feel good. And color is such a key component in creating that feeling.
Michael Boodro 14:21
Right. And I think especially now with this crazy world, I think we all need that psychological lift that color and pattern can bring because Michelle, you are a master of mixing patterns, I think. And you know, not subtle ones either. Talk a little about how you do that. Because it’s another thing people are afraid of. I know a lot of people are afraid of it. How do you approach that? And is it a hard sell for your clients? Or are they willing to embrace it?
Michelle Nussbaumer 14:48
It’s very much intuitive for me and I’ve been asked a couple of times to sort of give talks on mixing patterns and I think it’s intuitive, I guess. But of course you have the bigger one mixed with a smaller one but sometimes I don’t follow that rule either. So I don’t know. It has to just feel right for me. So I don’t really know how to answer that completely. But I really tried to work it out for people in my line with Clarence House. You know, my clients pretty much love pattern and color. Otherwise, I guess they wouldn’t call me. I do sometimes do white houses, which is strange, and that has happened. But somehow by the end of the job, there’s usually some color in there somewhere that I’ve convinced them to do. I just feel like color makes me so happy. And you know, I think there’s this sort of thing that we’ve been taught for years that you know, bedrooms should be pale and really calming. And, you know, that doesn’t necessarily make everyone happy. I mean, if that does make you happy, let’s definitely do that. But if your favorite color is orange, let’s make it orange, like waking up in a beautiful sunny orange room. And that’s what I tried to help people achieve in their lives. And a lot of my clients know they want a pattern, but then they’re afraid, even when they do hire me. So it’s kind of taking baby steps.
Michael Boodro 15:54
Yeah. So they do take a little cajoling sometimes.
Michelle Nussbaumer 15:57
A lot. They’ll show me all these pictures out of my own book or some other book and they’ll say, we want this and then when I pull it together, they’ll like, but wait, that doesn’t really match.
Michael Boodro 16:07
That’s good to know. I’m not alone in my fears!
Michelle Nussbaumer 16:12
But, you know, I try to draw it out, or we render it. And finally they kind of get on board. And sometimes when they don’t then later they’re like, you are right, we need to add some more patterns here. It makes people happy.
Michael Boodro 16:22
Yeah, I agree. But Tim, you have a lot of houses, especially in LA. You know, LA is a city that is indoor and outdoor with, you know, a lot of white backgrounds with a lot of white houses, because the sun is so beautiful there. The light is so great. And there’s so much greenery. So how do you get people to incorporate more colors? Sometimes I know, you pick up the green from nature, and we’ll put that in the kitchen or whatever. Is it a hard sell? How do you do that?
Timothy Corrigan 16:50
No, I think that I don’t know. I’m not always playing this hard rule that the upholstery all has to be bright colors. I will often go with very neutral, solid colors and whites and creams for the big upholstery pieces, but then go really wow on the color, on the walls, on the rugs, on the curtains, etc. I think Michelle is a little bit more exuberant in her design in terms of mixing huge patterns.
Michael Boodro 17:17
She is more exuberant than most people and designers!
Timothy Corrigan 17:20
And so I probably am a little more restrained on that. But I have no trouble going with a white sofa. But then adding the wow and the punch in terms of fabrics for pillows or a bench, etc. So again, I think you always have to figure it out. The way I look at it is I sort of look at a room and I say who are my leading characters? And who is the supporting cast? Now that’s a very typical LA thing to say. But it’s in the room, what is going to be the star? Is it the wall covering? Is it the curtains that are gonna be the star? Is it the rug? Is it the fabric on the chairs? And I sort of look at, what are the big stars? And then what are the other parts of the room that are the supporting characters? Because I don’t think you cannot have a room full of only stars. You have to have the supporting characters right.
Michelle Nussbaumer 18:08
Yeah. You have to have a place for the eye to rest as well. I agree, Timothy.
Michael Boodro 18:12
Yeah. Now I wanted to get a sense from you guys, because you have been working with all kinds of antiques from different eras. You know, your shop, Michelle, you go in there, and you’re like a time traveler from one corner to the next. You know, you have a very embracing eye, which I think is a wonderful thing. But what do you see coming next? I mean, you know, it seems like Georgian furniture, which I personally love English, Georgian Brown, you know, we used to call it brown furniture. I love that stuff. It has been out of style for a long time. And you keep hearing oh, maybe it’s coming back? I don’t know. We’ve seen trends come and go. What do you see on the horizon? What are you looking at?
Michelle Nussbaumer 18:53
Well, I have to say that a few years ago in my shop, I had a warehouse and I put all my 18th century Italian furniture in the warehouse because I just was not getting the price that this stuff was worth. And that the stuff I bought in Venice and collected over many trips to Europe and just most beautiful things and Georgian furniture, regency. And I just thought this isn’t selling so I’m going to stick it in the warehouse because it will be back. I’ve started bringing it back and it is flying out. I’ve actually always loved brown furniture. I mean beautiful patinas on beautiful wood. What is not beautiful about that? And for so long things have just been very accessible. They still are. And I think that that’s on the rise. I think brown furniture is on the way back. And if you look at the work of quite a few English designers and decorators, you will see that they use a lot of brown furniture and they actually never quit. So I would much rather have something beautiful in my house than some new thing that’s, you know, not really real and that’s just used furniture really. And I think Chairish is a good place for that. I’ve had sales there. It’s been great. I find great things there for clients. I love auctions. And there’s just so many places to find these things still. I do think that antiques are actually coming back. I was talking to some antique dealers in Atlanta earlier this year. And they were talking about how young people were actually coming in and buying antiques. And then it was so interesting, because they said they were comparing it versus the price of buying a table from Restoration Hardware. And they found that it was no more expensive to buy an antique.
Michael Boodro 21:24
Probably cheaper.
Michelle Nussbaumer 21:26
It is cheaper. I didn’t really want to say that.
Timothy Corrigan 21:28
Yes, it is. The quality is far better. And when you buy a piece of furniture that’s brand new, it becomes used furniture the next day. It’s worth 10 cents on the dollar. Whereas if you buy an antique, it’s already had its depreciation, and it’s going to hold its value better. So I think that young people are actually realizing that there are a whole lot of benefits, beyond the fact that it’s also green to buy antiques. I think that the trends are going towards some of the more unusual antiques. I’m seeing things that are at least at auction, at least, that are some of the more unusual shapes. And not just the traditional shapes that are coming back. People are sort of finding them and sort of saying, oh, that’s special. And it feels a little less old fashioned, because there is some quirkiness to it.
Michelle Nussbaumer 22:19
Another thing I’d like to add to that is, antiques have a scale that is for the human body, where it’s very much furniture today, especially like what we were talking about Restoration Hardware, and some of these things are scaled to the room. So they’re huge. And you can really just kind of fit one big thing in there. So to create the look that Timothy and I both do, even in a grand Chateau like Timothy does, you want as few other seating areas. You can’t necessarily do that with big furniture. And so that’s another thing I like about antiques is that you can add those layers that way.
Michael Boodro 22:53
Right. I mean, some of the scale of, you know, not just restaurant, but some of the showrooms, you go in and you think, oh my God, you know, if you especially if you live in Manhattan, like I do.
Michelle Nussbaumer 23:02
I mean, you have one chair in your living room. How do you create anything beautiful with that? You just can’t.
Michael Boodro 23:09
Right. And yeah, people love it. But you know, it’s that vision of loft living. That, you know, we’ve been dreaming of and had been promoted since the 80s. You know, living in big spaces for the open kitchen.
Michelle Nussbaumer 23:22
Furniture should be scaled to the human body, not to the room.
Michael Boodro 23:25
Right. Right. I think that’s a very good, interesting point, you know. But it’s like, how do we get people to really think differently. I mean, I do think that COVID, this crisis, a pandemic is changing, you know. People now are working from home. So they’re spending more time at home and become more dissatisfied with what doesn’t work about their home. But they also need privacy to do their Zoom calls, or their podcasts. Or maybe the kids need a space where they can be off on their own. Maybe you don’t need just one home office, but you need two home offices. So I think that we’re going in for change. There is much more emphasis on being able to go outdoors. It’s more healthy. And especially if you’re in the city, people are flooding the parks and any place where there is a green, you know, people are hanging out in a courtyard, whatever it might be. So I think that there is a bit of a change. And I think this is a time that maybe people are going to look to more traditional forms because they are, as you said, Tim and both of you have said, it is very comforting. And I think besides function, people want comfort and they want beauty.
Michelle Nussbaumer 24:29
Isn’t there’s something about it too, as the way we all grew up, where we actually, you know, ate with our families, played out in the garden, you know, plopped down on the family area with your friends. I mean, it’s just about using your home. I just feel like it’s a way of referencing back to how I grew up, and there’s something that feels good about it. So I hope that parts of this terrible thing that’s happening to us all, there are parts of it that have been good in that way.
Timothy Corrigan 24:54
And I think the fact that Michelle and I were talking just before we got on this call. You’re spending more time with your husband than you have in yours. I think we’re all doing that. We’re spending more time with our families, we’re spending more time with the people that are close to us. And I think that there’s such huge gifts in that. And it’s so important to find the positive aspects of this period. And take them forward as we move beyond this period because we will get beyond this period. But the lesson is to say, take this, take the good things from this and carry them forward.
Michelle Nussbaumer 25:27
And Timothy, I’ve seen a lot of friends on Instagram, for example, you know, just cooking for their families and setting the table with such love every night, and they’ll post these gorgeous tables, where they’re mixing their China patterns and using things they hadn’t used. And I think there’s something so great about that, that people are pulling out things they haven’t used, enjoying family time, or friends, or small groups of friends, and just really using their things instead of just going to a restaurant every night. There’s something comforting about it.
Michael Boodro 25:54
And I wanted to bring that up. I’m so glad you brought that up, Michelle, because I think entertaining, of course, it’s an important part of being home, especially now that we can’t go to a restaurant. But I love restaurants. And believe me, I’m sick of my own cooking. But you know, there is something about entertaining, which had gone out of style for a while, you were right. People didn’t entertain or have dinner parties. I mean, I have a few friends who had wonderful dinner parties, and I could occasionally muster it up and have people over for dinner, and I always loved it. And I still think it’s the ultimate compliment to have somebody come to a meal in your home. To me, if you invite somebody to dinner, that’s the ultimate compliment. But I think if people were away from that, you know, the tabletop market, the bridal market, and Tim, you said you’ve done dishes for that. You know, that market seemed to be shrinking. aAlot of the companies were going out of business. Do you think we’re gonna experience a turn shift with that?
Timothy Corrigan 26:42
What’s interesting, Michael, is that I just moved into a new house on the very first day of the COVID shutdown. And I had no choice but to continue with the movers for the next three days. So I’ve only lived in this house during the COVID period. And what we decided was we decided that we were going to make sure that we have dinner in the dining room every night. So yes, there’s a wonderful table in the kitchen. And I use that for breakfast. But in the evening, we go in and it’s at a big table, and we’ll light the candles. And it’s really making it special. And it’s you know, it’s just baffling to me. And there we are, but it makes that whole occasion feel special.
Michelle Nussbaumer 27:20
There’s something more traditional that’s happening, that we love. That’s a thing sort of from a long time ago, from our childhood or something that we’re all doing. And there’s something so great about it. I feel like when my children were growing up, so often they all had something different to do, a different game or a different activity. So it was so rare that we actually all got to sit down together. And so that’s just been so great for people I think.
Timothy Corrigan 27:41
Yep. And it doesn’t take any more time to do that. That’s the thing. It’s just, you know, it’s just literally, we’re gonna put a placemat down. You put it down in the dining room, you know. Use your good china. You can still put it in the dishwasher, even if it’s got gold on it. Use your good things and make every day special.
Michelle Nussbaumer 27:57
It’s better to use that and your best things. I tell people, all my young clients, I say, you know, use your beautiful linens, throw them in the washing machine and don’t iron them. But don’t use paper napkins. Use your silver, except for the knives, stick it all in the dishwasher. But use it. Use it and why not? It’s going to sit on a shelf and no one ever uses it from generation to generation? No.
Michael Boodro 28:16
Right? And there’s a line from Joan Didion that I love. Somebody asked her once about how she was using, you know – I think she set up lunch for a writer or something with lovely plates and Sterling and all this. And they just said, oh, well do you use this every day? And Joan Didion responded, well, what else do we have other than every day? And I’ve always remembered that line. For sure, you know, life is short, and use it. So I’m hoping that people will start to enter once, especially when there’s more mobility and you can entertain besides just your direct, immediate family, that people will have learned from this. And you know, people are entertaining outdoors. Now I’m having some friends over outdoors. And you know, we set a nice table and it’s fun and put candles out. And I think that that’s one of the things that may last. As I said, I’m still longing to go into a restaurant. I haven’t had french fries in four months. But that’s not something I’m going to cook myself. But I think that going back to this idea of taking the time, you know, life was so frantic before. And I think this is one of the few good things we’ve learned from this crisis. And as well as to appreciate nature more. And I wanted to ask you guys about some of the specifics of what you’re using now. And the schemes that you’re coming up with new clients. What are they asking for? What are you looking at? Is there more eagerness on the part of your clients for trims or elaborate curtains. But what are they looking for? Tim? What are your clients looking for?
Timothy Corrigan 29:52
It’s interesting, because I think just as Michelle was saying, I was expecting that in this crisis there would be no new clients coming in. It’s been quite the contrary and we’ve signed three big new jobs in the last six weeks. I’m very lucky with that, but they’re all looking for things that are elegant, that are beautiful, that are detailed. So they all respond to trims and detailing and the extra little details that set something apart from something that you’re going to buy from a catalog or from someone else. You know, it’s all about that customization and I think people more than ever want to feel that something is uniquely theirs and has been made specifically with them in mind. And I think that will continue. I think that whether it’s buying a simple lamp that you buy from Target and just putting a little trim on the lampshade, which makes it feel special, makes it feel like it’s unique. And I think that that’s what people increasingly are going to be looking for.
Michael Boodro 30:54
And how about you, Michelle?
Michelle Nussbaumer 30:56
Well, I agree with what Timothy is saying. And I have to say that with everything so accessible right now in the world, you know, you can just go online and practically find it anywhere and be delivered to your door. So what people really want is for their house to feel individual to them and personal to them. So I think people come to people like Timothy and myself to create a personal environment, and they know that we will find and search out things that aren’t necessarily available to every single person or create them. And I think luxury is something my clients are really asking for. And all the new jobs I’ve gotten in the last three months have been either second homes, or people that just realized their house is not working for them at all. So it’s kind of a remodel, or a second home or ranch or a hacienda right now. So I think this has made people realize, you know what we want is to escape to the countryside with our family. Or if we live here in town, we want to make this a sanctuary and livable for every person. And so they want, like you said, exactly like a space for the children, a work area for the children, a work area for the husband, and something personalized that feels like their family.
Michael Boodro 32:07
Right, right. I think even before COVID crisis, people were getting away from those McMansion kind of houses. I think, people now, a lot of city people want to move out to the suburbs of the country. But I think they don’t necessarily want those huge open plans and kitchens spilling into the living room with no particular dining rooms.
Timothy Corrigan 32:30
I think we’d already seen that before. The fact that the one big kitchen living room, real estate people told me people don’t want that as much. They actually want to be able to have some closure, some way of separating those spaces. And I think that becomes all the more important when we have more people in the house all the time.
Michelle Nussbaumer 32:50
And Tim, don’t you think that’s true, because people are actually cooking in their kitchen? They’re not actually just ordering some food and setting it out for everyone to enjoy. So when you really cook in the kitchen, it turns into a mess. So you don’t necessarily want everyone to see that. Do you?
Timothy Corrigan 33:03
Right. Or smell it. I hate the smell of a lot of cooking food. So the Europeans always have the kitchen as far away from the living areas as possible.
Michelle Nussbaumer 33:12
With all the windows open up. Except the Italians that smell so good and you want to smell that. I’ve always really liked a cook’s kitchen really where it is sort of the opposite of the house. And I always try to convince clients of this. And sometimes they go for it. And sometimes they don’t. But I just think it’s so much more civilized, to be able to kind of shut the door and then open, you know, this sort of amazing experience to your friends without them really seeing everything that goes on behind the scenes, but still big enough for your own family to hang out in there.
Michael Boodro 33:39
Right, right. I mean, and it’s like you said, who wants to look at dirty dishes? And one designer once said to me, well, the solution for that is very deep sinks. So there’s still ways but you don’t see it.
Michelle Nussbaumer 33:54
They have those farm sinks now. I guess that’s what they’re for.
Michael Boodro 33:57
Right. But it’s interesting to me that you know, you talk about and you mentioned a challenge with your clients. What are some of the challenges that you have with your clients in terms of trying to convince them of things or they resist things or they just don’t understand. I’d love to get a sense because I know your clients are very sophisticated, both of you. They wouldn’t be turning to you if they weren’t knowledgeable and sophisticated. And I think sometimes clients are almost too knowledgeable. They have too many ideas in their heads, it seems from what designers tell me.
Timothy Corrigan 34:29
I am curious to see if Michelle has the same feeling. But I think that the most difficult thing that I have in terms of convincing clients is the importance of art, that having things on the wall make a huge difference.The typical thing is oh, you can’t get clients to get accessories and fill out the room that way. I don’t have as much of that problem anymore. It’s really to make them understand the importance of art and it doesn’t have to be fine art or doesn’t have to be great art. But you need something on the walls to make the room feel complete. And to feel that. So I think that’s one of the bigger areas that we have to challenge them on.
Michelle Nussbaumer 35:09
I think you’re right, Timothy, because I think when you do jobs like we both do, you know, people obviously spend quite a lot. And it’s that last layer that is really the layer that makes things look the most beautiful and the most lived in. It’s that last thing that really makes things come and sing and come to life. And that’s when they sort of get like, oh, it’s great. You know, sometimes they don’t really realize, well, now we have to put the icing on the cake. Like, do you want the cake with birthday candles with no icing? That’s what I usually tell them. I’m like, okay, so we’re gonna serve a cake with some candles stuck in the batter. Is that going to be cute? And they’re like, oh, no, we want the flowers and the name and you know, all that. So they sort of sometimes get it that way. But yes, I think getting people to finish the job with the layers and the accessories and the art is sometimes problematic. But you know, a lot of my clients, I have to say I’ve worked with for years and years. Like I don’t have any jobs that I’ve done and then a year is finished. I have clients I work for, for 20 years and I’ve done multiple houses for them. And we’ve moved from one house to another and the children have bought a house that I’ve redone and use things from the old house or from the warehouse or whatever. So I have generations of people that I’ve worked with for many, many years, so I kind of don’t have that with those people. It’s maybe the new people that get married and don’t really have anything. And what I usually do is try to get them to do a collection of photography, like a Mark Shaw or, you know, something like that. We start with maybe that level. And of course, if I could ever get them to get an Avidan I would. But I think it’s a great place that young people can start.
Michael Boodro 36:40
Yeah, because photography is still fairly priced.
Michelle Nussbaumer 36:44
It is accessible to young people and looks really great.
Michael Boodro 36:46
Right. But just to back both of you up, I can tell you that when I was the editor of Elle Decor, we had so many really interesting projects that came in that we just couldn’t or wouldn’t photograph because they didn’t either have art or had bad art. And it just looks unfinished, especially when you photograph the room.
Michelle Nussbaumer 37:05
I’d rather have bad art than no art. You know, sometimes we’ll frame a Gracie panel or something, you know, at the end.
Michael Boodro 37:11
There’s all kinds of things you can do, you know. You’ve recommended this Tim, you know, get a book with botanical plates in it. Take them out, you know, not the rare one that belongs in the best library, but you know, a reprint or something. Take those pages out and have them framed and you know, put them in the powder room or put them in the girls bedroom. It’s beautiful, you know, and it doesn’t have to be valuable.
Michelle Nussbaumer 37:35
Even at auction, you can find so many things that are so reasonable. And you can do a whole art wall. I love art. I mean, art is so important.
Timothy Corrigan 37:43
I often will draw the distinction with clients between decorative art and fine art. And that you can buy really wonderful decorative art for $200, $300, $400 and $500. And you know, framed etc. And boom, put it on the wall and the room is going to feel so much more finished. And again, this issue about whether it’s good or bad art, I think a lot of times it’s important, if you love it, if it speaks to you in some way, then it’s successful.
Michael Boodro 38:08
Right.
Michelle Nussbaumer 38:09
I have a new line coming out with Wendover Art Group. And there’s so many beautiful pieces you can find from places like that in the decorative center or whatever, where they’ve done all the framing and the price point is so great. I mean I’m shocked actually by the price point because it would cost me twice as much to frame it.
Michael Boodro 38:28
In the way they do, right? Because framing can be really expensive.
Michelle Nussbaumer 38:31
Really expensive and so important.
Timothy Corrigan 38:33
It’s the same thing. Like I feel like, gee, you can get away with not a great lamp, if you have a great lampshade. It’s the same way with art. And sometimes, you know, I’ll tell the clients, let’s buy this painting for $20. But put a great frame on it that may cause $40. But it’s going to be so much better because the frame is so important.
Michelle Nussbaumer 38:51
The framing is everything. I agree Timothy, and you know, in Paris, when you go to the flea market, you can go to these stalls upstairs, that Dauphine market, and they have all of these old prints that sometimes I’ll buy and we’ll frame them and map them up and they just look like a million bucks. Do you ever go there, Timothy?
Timothy Corrigan 39:08
I buy a lot of frames at the Paris flea market as well.
Michelle Nussbaumer 39:13
I love that. Old frames. Yeah.
Michael Boodro 39:15
The other thing that you love Timothy, and I think I suspect you do as well Michelle is mirrors. You know, and that sometimes you get an old frame and you put a mirror in.
Timothy Corrigan 39:24
Absolutely. I think that’s probably the biggest trick that I use. I use mirrors a lot in rooms and clients will often say well, I don’t know if I don’t want to be looking at myself. Doesn’t it feel vain and I sort of say mirrors are not there to even look in. They are there to make the room feel more open, to expand the space, to let light in, to make it feel brighter. And so I think mirrors are a trick that people really should be embracing more of.
Michelle Nussbaumer 39:50
I love mirrors. I agree.
Michael Boodro 39:51
Yeah. And it’s also a great way for a frame to stand out. The frame becomes the sculpture and I think it’s so great.
Michelle Nussbaumer 39:58
I sometimes buy a mirror that is not really a great mirror, but has sort of an okay frame on it. And then I’ll frame it again in a better frame on top of that. So it’s a double layer. So you can just find a frame, like, I’m not kidding, like Pier One or something. And then you frame it again with a bigger frame and it can look like such a showstopper.
Timothy Corrigan 40:20
Or even, I just will oftentimes buy a frame that may just be a composite frame, but we just will just paint it and again, if it’s got beautiful lines, etc, it could be a cheap old frame, you paint it and all of a sudden it feels totally different.
Michelle Nussbaumer 40:34
And then it becomes a sort of plaster. I love that.
Michael Boodro 40:37
Right, right. And what about furniture because I know there was a rage for painting furniture and antique painted furniture was the rage fairly recently, but do you do that?
Michelle Nussbaumer 40:49
I used to paint furniture a lot more. I have to say, I do collect furniture from the 18th century that’s been painted black because after Marie Antoinette was assassinated or I don’t know what that’s called, I guess they were killed. The royalists at the time would take all of their 18th century furniture and paint it black in mourning. And it’s so beautiful, the patina. Because there’s all these beautiful 18th century pieces, you know some more country pieces painted black and so I’ve collected them for years. They’re really beautiful.
Michael Boodro 41:25
Yeah, and then with a rage in the 90s was any old piece of furniture you had or wicker whatever, you were supposed to take it to a car paint shop and remember the car finished paint?
Michelle Nussbaumer 41:36
I think I did that. It was a kind of lacquer.
Michael Boodro 41:41
It was lacquer or a metallic thing. And I wonder what happened to all of that furniture?
Michelle Nussbaumer 41:46
I’m sure it’s gonna come back. Yes. It’ll be hot.
Michael Boodro 41:50
Right. I mean, you know, Mission furniture, when I was young it was all the rage. Now you can’t give it. I mean, there are fashions of antiques.
Timothy Corrigan 41:57
Yes. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I remember when Biedermeier was everywhere.
Michael Boodro 42:03
I own a lot of it.
Timothy Corrigan 42:05
I still do.
Michelle Nussbaumer 42:07
I love Biedermeier.
Timothy Corrigan 42:08
Oh, I love Biedermeier. Biedermeier is so classic.
Michelle Nussbaumer 42:13
That was the modern furniture of its age.
Timothy Corrigan 42:16
Yeah. And I think that’s the important thing too, if you mix all these periods, it’s so much more wonderful and so much more rich when you have all the different elements together.
Michelle Nussbaumer 42:25
Isn’t there something fun too, about knowing about things and reading about them and learning about them and then sussing them out and finding them so much more fun than just going into a store and buying something brand new? Right?
Timothy Corrigan 42:36
Right. I think that’s an interesting thing that you talked about Michelle is that, I feel that a lot of times with clients, they just need to be educated and they just need to be taught. And if you explain why something is the way it is, they actually take great pride to understand that and to explain that to their friends and family. So I think that the education of our clients is a big part of our job as well. And it’s a very important part that will help make them understand and appreciate what we’re recommending to them.
Michelle Nussbaumer 43:05
Because I come from this antique background, I always give people a little booklet on the antiques in their house with a little description. And people really like it because you know, when people come over, they like to explain and they don’t always remember all the details. So I usually do that for people and I think it’s something they really like.
Michael Boodro 43:25
Well, I used to say that what I did at Elle Decor was to give people things to talk about at a cocktail party. You know, people love a story. And if you say oh, there’s this new furniture maker in Alabama that I read about, or, you know, or this piece in my house came from such and such, I think that really enriches the experience. Getting people to connect with everything in their house, as opposed to just, this the stove or the refrigerator or the sofa. I think it’s one of the great things that you guys do and I think that I have a sense anyway that, when you lead them through ordering this crazy wallpaper that you love, Michelle, or you know, an old painting, Tim, that you found that encapsulates a certain period, I’m sure they love getting that story, because it connects them in a way that’s so much richer and layered.
Michelle Nussbaumer 44:23
Timothy and I both always been students of the decorative arts. So everyone who works for me in my office, I have these books that I’ve created starting back with 80s House and Garden, I would tear out these articles about Kashmiri shawls for example. And anyway, they’re huge. And I make everyone who works for me take them home and read them. And I think that you know, you can’t sell decorative arts if you don’t understand it. And a lot of young designers come into my showroom and they really don’t teach this in school. And I think it’s quite a shame and I think that the difference in a way in European design is that people grow up going to every museum. They have the Victorian Albert which is full of all kinds of decorative arts and you know, we don’t revere that as much in America.
Michael Boodro 45:06
Yeah, I think it’s true. And, I think the outlets for people to learn about that are harder. You know, most people now learn things online. They don’t even go to libraries the way they used to.
Michelle Nussbaumer 45:17
I mean, it’s so important. Museums are just so important.
Michael Boodro 45:19
Right. And I do think museums are more popular than ever, which is a great thing. Once they reopen, please, God, let it be soon. You know, I think that has become a real resource for people. But I think the backup knowledge is harder for them to come by. So it’s interesting. Do you do something similar with your staff? I mean, how do you train young designers and young people who love design?
Timothy Corrigan 45:39
Fortunately, we’ve got a very good chapter of the Institute of Classical Art and Architecture here in Southern California. And so we actually pay for them to attend all the different seminars and classes.
Michelle Nussbaumer 45:50
That is so great.
Timothy Corrigan 45:53
Right now, there’s one on the history of molding and the order of molding. There’s another one that’s coming up on ornamentation, and I’m sure these are all on Zoom. So if you go to the ICA website, you will find these courses and I have been on the board in the past.
Michelle Nussbaumer 46:12
When we hang up, you have to send me that link!
Timothy Corrigan 46:14
I will, but it’s great. And I think it’s so important. We actually make an effort. Anytime any of our employees go to a museum,we will pay for their admissions. We, you know, really encourage them to continue to learn. And I think just like Michelle, we’ve got a huge library here. And so we even encourage interns to take books out and they have to bring them back. That’s the key thing. But it’s so important to have all that data, because the context is so much more important. And we’ve talked about this before. I think Instagram is great, but it doesn’t give any context to the images. And you have to understand the background and the history of them. And that’s really important.
Michelle Nussbaumer 46:54
We have darling interns right now that are all so obsessed with design. And I think that you know, when you get someone like that, who comes on your team, there’s such a blessing about that. You know, people that really have passion about design, and want to learn everything and soak it up. And I love working with those young interns and helping them find their way that way. It really gives me a lot of joy.
Michael Boodro 47:18
And I think that’s helpful. And I mean, I’ve noticed even a little resurgence of interest in Shaker furniture, which was all the rage when I was younger, and I love it and I think it’s fantastic. And you know, the prices went way up but you know the quality.
Michelle Nussbaumer 47:34
You know what else I think is really coming back, you’re just going to die when I say this. I think Queen Anne furniture is going to have a resurgence. But what I think is going to happen is it’s gonna be the Queen Anne with crazy fabric on it. You know, some crazy quilt on it or some modern print on it. I just saw this. I’ve seen this a little bit in Italy, and I think it’s going to be happening.
Michael Boodro 47:55
Yeah, yeah. And I think people want these stories and they want the information again, which actually I find very exciting. So I want to thank you all for listening. And I want to thank my fantastic guests, Michelle Nussbaumer and Tim Corrigan again, and until next time. Thanks for listening to the Chairish podcast.