More often than not, it is the work of a craftsman or artisan that brings the ultimate touch of style and distinction to a room. But during times of crisis or financial uncertainty, they are the ones likely to suffer the most drastic setbacks. On this episode, interior designer Brad Ford, who founded the high style crafts fair Field + Supply, and Analisse Taft-Gersten, whose ALT for Living showrooms feature works by numerous talented makers, weigh in on how we can sustain artisans and small makers through the pandemic and ensure that we don’t lose their skills or their unique sensibilities and style.
In this episode, our guests tackle:
- How Brad and Analisse source for new, talented makers and artisans as partners
- The direction of the future of design in terms of crafts and handmade things
- The impact of COVID-19 on projects, workrooms and studios
- The parallels between 9/11 and the coronavirus pandemic’s repercussions on the design industry
- Ways to sustain artisans and makers during a crisis
- Suggestions on how to deliver information to clients so they feel supported and come up with a plan for the future
Additional resources:
- Don’t Miss This Maker’s Amazing Story via Chairish
- Makers Meet The Modern Age via Business of Home
- “A Maker Movement” Is a New Way to Virtually Discover Artisans and Makers via House Beautiful
- Local Custom Furniture Maker Pivots to Design Homeschool Desks for Kids via 5280
Connect with Chairish and our guests on Instagram:
- Chairish: @chairishco
- Michael Boodro: @michaelboodro
- Analisse Taft-Gertsen: @altforliving
- Brad Ford: @brad_ford_id
Lead Photo Design from Field + Supply / Photo: Scott Rudd
READ AND LISTEN TO THE ENTIRE EPISODE:
Michael Boodro 0:00
This is a Chairish podcast and I’m your host Michael Boodro. One element of the design world that has always impressed me is how interconnected we all are. An amazing array of talents and skilled workers goes into creating any beautiful home. But at the time of crisis such as this, a single project that is canceled or delayed, affects so many people. It is not unlike a line of dominoes, each toppling the next and all too often it is the individual craftsmen and small makers, the ones whose work bring so much distinction and style to our home, or at the end of the line are most likely to be hurt. How can we sustain these artisans and makers through this crisis and ensure that we don’t lose their skills and unique sensibility. I’m pleased to have with me today two design world fixtures who have supported small makers throughout their careers. First is Analisse Taft Gersten. After traveling the globe and immersing herself in a variety of cultures and colorful lifestyle, she came to understand the importance of the traditional crafts and the skills of local makers and artists. And she has taken that firsthand knowledge to show her Alt For Living showrooms in New York and Los Angeles, where she showcases an array of luxe and stunning hand woven rugs, lighting, furniture and textiles, as well as hardware that is as beautiful as jewelry. Welcome Analisse.
Analisse Taft Gersten 1:41
Hi, Michael, thank you for having me.
Michael Boodro 1:44
Glad you’re here. I’m also pleased to have with us Brad Ford who is not only a talented interior designer, but has his own showroom fair at the New York Design Center, where he showcases the work of numerous small makers of furniture, ceramics, metal and leather, including Hudson workshops, Andrew Finnegan, and Black Creek Mercantile. He’s also the force behind Field and Supply, a twice a year weekend get together of more than 100 makers of design items, fashion, tabletop, art and jewelry in Kingston, New York. And in response to the Corona crisis, he has launched an innovative Instagram account, A Maker Moment, to highlight the work of a diverse group of makers. Thanks for being here, Brad.
Brad Ford 2:28
Thank you, Michael. I appreciate it.
Michael Boodro 2:31
Before we talk about the crisis itself, I want to get a little background about how you both became so involved with artisans and makers. I wanted to start with you Analisse. How do you find the people that you feature in your showrooms? How do you care about new talent? How do you approach it and how does it work?
Analisse Taft Gersten 2:50
If only it wouldn’t be easy? Yeah. I mean, look, I’ve been in the industry a long time. I worked at a similar showroom for over a decade before I started my own which has now been open for 12 years. You know, this world is very small when it comes to artisans and our industry is pretty small as well when it comes to real boutique stuff and being high end and super tasteful. So you know, I feel that once the artisans find the right spot, they sort of find you and honestly I’ve been very fortunate to have a lot of artisans find me first either through other artisans that recommend them or just from word of mouth. Certainly I’m getting a lot more artisans contacting me recently on Instagram, so that’s a great platform for young artisans that don’t have businesses up and running yet.
Michael Boodro 3:56
And you have a great Instagram account, which for anybody who doesn’t follow you should.
Analisse Taft Gersten 4:01
I love it. I absolutely love Instagram. And then lastly, you know, going to all the fairs that are out there or that were before this crisis, you know, like Field then Supply and Maison & Objet and you know, I was going to go for my first time to Milan, you know, for Salone del Mobile and you know, even Legends. Artisans go there as well in Los Angeles and try to meet the applicable showrooms to show their art.
Michael Boodro 4:33
Right. So Brad, I wanted to ask you, when I got into the business, and we won’t go into how many years ago that was, one of the complaints I heard all the time was that the design industry was losing talented craftsmen and their skills. And yet you seem to have found an amazing assortment of really talented craftsmen and in a variety of styles. I mean at fair you and Analisse both take a more modern take on the craftsmanship and the look of that. But how did you go about finding all these people? And what came first? Was it the show where you were discovering these artists in the showroom? How did it go?
Brad Ford 5:13
You know, it’s sort of similar to Analisse’s story. I’ve been in this business for years, as an interior designer, and had always really been attracted to craft, even when I was a kid. You know, I’m from a small town in Arkansas. And really my first exposure to design was arts and crafts fairs. And so I had just always really responded to artisans. And when I moved to New York, I had an opportunity to work for Jed Johnson, and Alan Wanzenberg. And they also were really into arts and crafts. And I remember, you know, they had some incredible Stickley furniture.
Michael Boodro 5:52
I remember that moment very well.
Brad Ford 5:55
And so I think that just sort of reiterated my interest and passion for craftsmanship. And then, you know, for certain projects, I would seek out people to execute certain things and get to know people. But I think also the big thing was going to fairs and design fairs. And I would always see a lot of stuff. But then there would be like, you know, maybe 5 or 10% of folks that were doing really beautiful work, but it was getting lost. And I just kept thinking, I wish I could somehow collect all of those different people that I see at different fairs and somehow bring them together. And that’s really how Field & Supply was started. I thought, why not just reach out to some of these people and see if they’re interested in starting something. And the first time we did it, we just had such a great response.
Michael Boodro 6:52
How many years ago was that?
Brad Ford 6:53
Gosh, Michael, I knew you’re gonna ask me that! Like six or seven years ago. And so, you know, we just continued to do it each year. And I think every time we did it, we got more interest from craftsmanship. I mean, from craftspeople that wanted to be a part of it and people that wanted to come and attend the fair. And then Jim Druckman, from the New York Design Center approached me and said, you know, I really think you should have a more permanent presence. And I just said, Jim, I have absolutely zero interest in doing that. I mean, I’ve never even thought about a showroom. And, the more I said, no, the more incentives he gave me to where I just would have been foolish not to have tried it and done it. And so we opened and, I think that’s been maybe five years ago. And again, I think the industry really responded to sort of this fresh outlook on options for elevated design that was, you know, made by hand. To me, pieces that are done by hand have so much more soul than a lot of things that you can get from a manufacturer.
Michael Boodro 8:09
Right. Well, it’s interesting to me that both of you take a very sort of modernist approach to crafts. I mean, a lot of people think of crafts, they think, you know, hooked rugs, or these quilts, all of which, personally, I love, but it’s not been at the forefront of interior design, shall we say? But you guys have brought crafts to the forefront. And to me, that’s incredibly impressive. And how much of that was the artisans and designers themselves already doing that look? Or how much would you encourage them? So Analisse? Why don’t you answer that in terms of, you know, you have textiles and you have people that you work with, at a very high level. Was that their own inclination? Was it a merging of the two of you for your showrooms?
Analisse Taft Gersten 8:55
No, I wish I could take credit for that. But they’ve all been most likely doing it for years. However, there’s a lot of collaboration when it comes to I am frontline to show products to designers. And my feedback is important to the artisans because they want to know what it is that the designers are looking for? So a lot of times my artisans will come to me and say, what do you think of this new palette? Or what do you think of this new weave? Or what do you think about this idea? And you know, I very candidly will tell them yes or no or I think it’s going to work. And I think that they appreciate that. Once you find the chemistry between the showroom, and the artisan, I think that’s where the real magic happens and you can bounce ideas off of another person.
Michael Boodro 9:49
A little bit of a collaboration, more of a guide, in a way like this is something you think would be good for the market. Maybe not. And Brad, how about you?
Brad Ford 10:00
I completely agree. One of the reasons I was attracted to certain people was because of the aesthetic that they had already developed. But once we started working together, I very much became almost an editor with them showing me things. And being on the other side of the industry as a designer, I think I have a pretty good sense of what people are responding to, and at what price points. And so we talk a lot about margins. And, you know, we certainly don’t ever want someone to develop something that is going to price themselves out of the market. And so you know, not only do we talk about the aesthetic of things, but we’ve definitely talked about pricing a lot. Analisse, I’m sure you do that as well.
Analisse Taft Gersten 10:44
I do. I’m known for really expensive products.
Michael Boodro 10:49
Can you get priced out of Analisse’s market? I don’t know.
Analisse Taft Gersten 10:53
I mean, I have an artist from Paris with gold yarns and she weaves it. So you know, it’s so beautiful. Does it sell a lot? No. But, you know, I think too, that sometimes the unusual pieces that they get to do, is what keeps them sort of moving and creating every day. So, you know, yes, it’s a business. And yes, it’s all about margins. I totally agree, Brad. But on the flip side of it, I want to make sure that they feel that they have that space to create and feel motivated. I will take care of the business part and they can take care of the creativity. And again, there’s a sweet spot in the middle. But again, I’m not the go to person to ask necessarily for a price point.
Michael Boodro 11:50
Elevated design, elevated price point. Right. How much of your business do you work with other designers? Like they come to the showroom and they say, Oh, I love this bench but I needed eight feet as opposed to six feet. Is that something that they do?
Brad Ford 12:09
Absolutely. And I think that’s one of the reasons that people have really responded to the showroom. They can come and do almost anything custom. You know, we do carry a few manufacturers from Denmark and Japan, and even some of those can do custom sizes and finishes to an extent. But, you know, we really try to work with people on whatever their needs are.
Michael Boodro 12:38
And do you think there’s a broader acceptance now for handmade, because for a while it was kind of almost out of fashion, I would say.
Brad Ford 12:45
I do agree with you that I think a lot of people think of the word craft as being homespun or hook rugs. And I think there has been a bit of an education to the consumer about the fact that craftsmanship can be elevated. And it can be really beautiful and modern and work in a number of contexts. And I think that’s a message that still has to be reiterated over and over again. But fortunately, I think people are starting to respond to that. I think they respond to the narrative and the storytelling behind craftsmanship. And I think that’s something that people just like being able to tell. People that come over and say, you see that table right there that the slab that it was made of comes from a 150 year old tree, and it took this many hours to mill and I think that there’s something that people respond to about that.
Michael Boodro 13:38
I’m a big believer in narrative. I mean, that’s what I think magazines are good at too or this kind of thing is people like to have a story to tell. It gives a connection to the works. Analisse, do you find that your clients, your designer clients, also want to have that story as well. I mean, you do a lot of stuff, sort of a private label deal. Do you explain to them how you like your hardware? It just always strikes me as you have the most beautiful hardware. It really is. Do they want to know the story behind that and what the materials are?
Analisse Taft Gersten 14:15
They do and I encourage the story to the designer to pass it through to the end user because the stories are beautiful. Like for instance, I have a rug line where it’s made from all women weavers in Wahaca out of their homes, out of marigolds and all natural dyes and indigos and you know from the beetle blood. Those stories in itself can actually make that choice for the end user where they could be looking at two separate things and the story itself can put them over the line. So you know on our Instagrams, too, we talk a lot about the artisan’s stories. I’m very transparent with my artisans. And I want their story to be heard. And I think it’s very on trend. I hate saying that word. But I would say 90% of the designers that come to my showroom come there, because they know that most of it is handmade. They want that look and feel. And they come to me for that. They go to other showrooms for other reasons. But handmade, I mean, there’s just nothing different. It’s so special.
Michael Boodro 15:33
Right. And I think that information about design is disseminated so widely, you know, on Instagram in particular, and people see so much. I think the search for what’s distinctive is even more important and a little harder, I would think, to find something. Everything gets exposed at a certain point. So I think that having something unique, or a maker who can do something special, really enriches the design process in the design world. But of course now at this moment, some of these wonderful stories I have to tell aren’t so wonderful and aren’t so happy. So that’s why I’m thrilled to have you both here to talk about how can we help these makers make it through, because I know I’ve talked to a lot of designers and I know there’s a big fear out there, that they’re going to commission something special, order somebody’s from a small, firm or an individual maker, and they’re very worried that these people might go out of business, and then their clients money will be lost. So how do you address that issue? Brad, why don’t we start with you?
Brad Ford 16:39
Well, when this all started to happen, I mean, within the first few days, we reached out to every one of our makers and just checked in to sort of gauge their temperature, and what their capacity was going to be to continue working. And first of all, I think Analisse I’m sure you would agree, but a lot of these makers are used to running a pretty tight ship, you know, and being very lean. And they do it because they absolutely love it. You know, it’s a passion for them. And we spoke to so many people and I think we’re still being very optimistic. And with some we’re taking time to sort of think about new ideas. A lot of them actually have work rooms, or studios within their home or next to their home so they could continue working. But I was surprised that overall, I felt like the mood was pretty decent. But all that to say we really wanted to make sure that they stayed relevant, and that their stories stayed out there. And that’s why we started the initiative, A Maker Moment. And it really was to kind of help put a face to the name. And so that people could get to know them a little bit more. And even though these are some people that I’ve worked with for years, I’m still learning things about them. And you know, some of the questions and the answers that they provided I just thought were so fascinating and so sophisticated. And it just reiterated the fact that a lot of these makers are just so incredibly smart and talented and well rounded and have such cultural interests that we can all learn from. And so it’s been really cool. I even look forward to each one that comes out every day, reading what their answers are, and learning a little bit more about them.
Michael Boodro 18:30
It’s a great initiative. You know, I love it too. And I would advise all the listeners to really sign on to it because you learn so much. And you see new products and new design ideas. And I think it’s great, but it must be a lot of work.
Brad Ford 18:42
Michael, I think people would think that it would be but we set it up really quickly with a template and a series of questions that sort of rotate. And so the actual work is on the maker’s part to just answer the questions and then we just kind of, you know, fill it in. It’s not nearly as complicated as it sounds.
Michael Boodro 19:50
Now Analisse, I want to ask you because as we were saying, with your price point the designers are putting down a hefty chunk of change on behalf of their clients. Have you experienced any nervousness or resistance at this time? You know, some projects have been canceled or postponed. Construction is at a standstill in a lot of the country. So how are your designer clients and their clients feeling?
Analisse Taft Gersten 20:15
Well, you know, I actually learned a lot from 911. It had a similar impact immediately on the industry. So I was pretty well prepared in how I was going to deliver information, how I was going to make my clients feel, that they can trust that they’re supported, and that we’re all in this together, and we’re moving forward. So literally, from the beginning, I knew what I had to do. So I immediately started doing videos on Instagram, speaking to my clients and telling them the realities of what is happening in the world, you know, and it’s going to be a long process that we will be informing them, as we get the information. It’s all moving targets. I think that for most people, in general, and all businesses, the biggest fear is the unknown. So even if it’s bad news, it’s news for them to be able to absorb and have conversations about with the end users, and come up with a plan. We have been very fortunate through this pandemic, with our vendors and our artisans. Just like Brad said, they are used to living tightly, and we just talk to them every day. A lot of the issues are not even, that we can’t provide the product. A lot of the issues are that they can’t even weave right now because they’re in lockdown through all these other countries. The other issue is they won’t even ship these types of goods into our country right now because they’re, you know, concentrating more on getting in the essential things from other countries. And it’s complicated, but I think that the best thing that we have been doing, and particularly my team has been so great about it, is everyone is communicating day to day talking about it. Whatever the designer wants to do. If they feel more comfortable giving a 25% deposit or I’m telling them that it’s okay, if they want to wait on the balance until I know I can get tracking information. What’s been really interesting is I’ve had materials sitting in warehouses in China, in Nepal and India that have been ready for weeks, and they just can’t get on the flight. So you know, we have to take it day by day. And the most important thing is that everyone has to support one another and know that we will get through this together. It just is going to take a little bit more time and patience.
Michael Boodro 23:10
Right. Now one of the ways that we could support these artisans, and I just want to know if you’re thinking about this, is expanding their audience. I mean, both of you deal to the trade. But are you thinking or rethinking how you’re going to sell or promote in the future, because you know, the more people who will know about this work are going to want it.
Brad Ford 23:32
We had already started to work on an e-commerce unit of Field & Supply so that people could start to buy directly from the makers. And it’s something that we kind of put on the fast track after this happened because we also aren’t quite sure if we’re going to be able to have the fair this summer, and we’ve postponed it to the end of July. And we’re trying to be cautiously optimistic. We don’t want to call it yet, because so many of our vendors depend on that for income.
Michael Boodro 24:04
And it’s also a huge boon to the town of Kingston. I met the mayor of Kingston.
Brad Ford 24:09
He’s so lovely. And it is a big economic boost for the community. And so we’re being cautiously optimistic about that. But with the ecommerce part of the site, we’re also trying to look at different tools to have almost a virtual fair, so that you would actually be able to interact with the artisans that weekend through the website. And there are all sorts of really cool tools that we’re working on. And, you know, again, we’re just we just want to make sure that everyone’s name stays out there, that their work is being promoted and that they stay relevant. And so to answer your question, yes, hopefully, we will be able to open this up for more people to have access beyond either our showroom or the fair itself the weekends in Kingston.
Michael Boodro 25:01
Oh, I think, you know, Makers Moment is a big step in that direction. Analisse, what about you? How are you rethinking your business? How do you approach things?
Analisse Taft Gersten 25:10
Well, Michael, I’m doing that every day anyway.
Michael Boodro 25:15
What a hard worker you are.
Analisse Taft Gersten 25:16
I’m always thinking about the next thing. This has been an incredible experience. There’s been a lot of silver lining to COVID-19. You know, like Brad, you said, you know, I’ve been working more hand in hand with my staff, with my accountant, bookkeepers, artists and vendors, really getting more hands on and I’m learning so much more about them. You know, I’ve been doing this for 22 years, and I’m still learning so much.
Michael Boodro 25:49
To move beyond the crisis, because let’s hope and pray that at some point, in the not too distant future, we will be able to move beyond the crisis. So what do you guys think about the direction of design in terms of crafts and handmade things? Do you think it’s going to continue on in the same vein? Do you think artisans are rethinking in light of the crisis? Have you seen any, anybody you’ve talked to, or seen any evidence that there’s gonna be changes or new direction or things coming back into style that are out of style? What’s your bigger picture? Analisse, why don’t you go first?
Analisse Taft Gersten 26:28
Well, it’s funny, you say that. So I’m doing this new thing called Textile Tuesday, and I’m doing kind of what we’re doing right now. Recorded zoom to post on our IG TV, which is just conversations with our vendors so they can get to know them a little bit more and they can talk about their experiences and so forth. But just yesterday, you know, one of my fabric designers is making beautiful masks to sell. She started, just giving them to the health workers, and you know, they’re doing really well. And it’s making her rethink a little bit about how she could maybe expand out of home a little bit, and what she can do with her hands and her mind. So I do, Michael, think that everybody is starting to think about their businesses differently, the world differently, this industry differently, and artisans are survivors. They’re artists. But yeah, I think everyone’s thinking about it differently. And I think you’re gonna have some really exciting things to write about.
Michael Boodro 27:38
Good. And Brad, what do you see?
Brad Ford 27:41
I tried to be very optimistic, cautious, but also be realistic. I do think that anytime there’s sort of like deprivation, there’s incredible innovation. And I just have no doubt that all of these artisans’ minds are spinning, and coming up with new ideas and new concepts. I know even for me, like, we’ve really, like leaned into this, and tried to figure out new innovative ways to promote our business and to communicate with clients. And so I just feel like, we’re gonna get through this. It’s gonna be lean, and it’s gonna be a little hairy in the next few months. But I do think that we’ll come out on the other side of it better and stronger, and with a lot more interesting ideas in the furniture industry. And this is the thing. I don’t think craftsmanship is going anywhere. And I think if anything, it will become even more popular. Just because like I said, I think people are really responding to the narrative aspect of it. And sort of the idiosyncratic parts of that you get with craftsmanship. Every piece is different, even if they make the same piece over and over. It’s inevitable that it’s going to be different, either from a knot in the wood, or the sanding, or the weave. And I think that there’s something really cool about that.
Michael Boodro 29:08
Well, one of the things that impressed me during this Corona crisis is how people have reached out the way you guys have each reached out to your artisans and your clients. And I think the design community is reaching out to each other. And I think that that bodes really well, for this very personal handmade, whether it’s, you know, a hooked rug, a traditional hook rug, or something as sleek as some of the artists that you represent. I think that there’s this feeling that you know, something handmade does connect you to a person and I think we all at this point, especially being in our homes isolated long for that kind of connection. I don’t think that’s going to disappear once the restrictions of Corona then loosen. So I think that bodes really well for what you guys are doing. I just wanted to have a sense, do you guys feel that it’s a time to be looking for new people? Are you shrinking back a little? How do you see the next year of your showrooms? How do you see that evolving? Analisse, do you think that the market is going to expand? Are you playing a little more conservative?
Analisse Taft Gersten 30:19
Well, I’m pretty conservative in general, when it comes to, you know, keeping it lean. But, you know, all my braces are gone, you know, which was really sad. I did have to lean up a little bit. And again, another silver lining, this has exposed me to see where we can be lean and what maybe we might need more of in the future. So I’m definitely going to be more conservative because I, too, am a realist, and I see what’s going on in the world. And this is going to be a dance of in and out of lockdowns, at least until we have the vaccine. So there’s no need, I’m not going to be hiring anybody new. But maybe re-shifting how people work. And really looking internally and how we can, you know, maybe work with less people, and be even more efficient. So that happened after 911. Two, I think, with a lot of companies is they you know, especially with designers, it was so bad, they had to let go, and they didn’t really hire back. They just figured out a new way of working.
Michael Boodro 31:45
Right. A bunch of designers said to me at the time, that was the most horrible thing to lay off, people after 911. And so then even when they got busy a few years later, they were hesitant to hire new people, just because they didn’t want to go through the trauma of having to lay them off if something should happen. So it does make you more conservative.
Analisse Taft Gersten 32:01
Yeah. 100%. But like, you know, Los Angeles, we’re doing really well there. I only have one employee. He has occasionally, you know, we have a great temp service that sends somebody in to support him. But I’ve learned new ways in the past five years of how to make things work. Expanding without over expanding. And I think from this, it’s truly been a lesson of, you know, I detached myself a little bit from the business in the past couple years, probably because I was so exhausted. But, you know, being back in the game, and being the leader again, and seeing and making sure that everything is working, you know, in unison, even though we’re all working from different states and workplaces, it’s really opened my eyes again, to wanting to be back in it, and to make sure that it’s even greater than it ever was.
Michael Boodro 33:07
And Brad, how about you? I mean, your showroom is closed, obviously.
Brad Ford 33:12
Yeah, it’s funny, Michael, because we had just come back at the beginning of February from the Stockholm Design Fair. And we were so excited about the number of new artisans that we found there. And so, you know, we were about to place deposits on orders and start promoting them. And we just, you know, spoke to a lot of them and said, listen, we’re still committed to having you be a part of our showroom. We may not be able to order as much right now that we’d like to, are you comfortable with us going ahead and putting some of your product on the website promoting it, and they all were, you know, eager to just go ahead and start the relationship. Even if we didn’t have to put as much money into it as we initially thought. I still find people that I get excited about and artisans that I’d like to represent. And I think, you know, we’re all having to just help each other at this point. And I think, you know, I’ve always run a very, very tight, lean business. At this point, I can’t let anybody go because they’re running the business. So I think there would definitely be ways to cut back in other ways, with what’s new. What’s next, for example, we may not have as many new products. But, you know, we’re just trying to be as creative as we can. And everyone’s really, I mean, my team is just incredible. And they’re all working so hard to make sure that we get through this on the other side, and so it’s pretty good right now.
Michael Boodro 34:48
Okay. Well, I think there is, as I was saying, a real desire and passion for the kinds of work that you guys show and promote and I think you bring so much to the design industry. And, you know, we really appreciate everything you do. And we want to help you get through this. So you can help your artisans to get through this. Because as we were saying, once those skills are gone, they’re gone. And once those makers aren’t here anymore, if they don’t have a successful business and pass on their traditions and their skills and their knowledge, the design role will be a lot less than it has been in the past. And you guys have really brought craftsmanship to such a high level of visibility. I think it’s been in great, great service. I personally want to thank you and I know I want to thank my wonderful guests, Analisse Taft Gersten and Brad Ford, and I want to thank you all for listening to the Chairish podcast.
